Why hasn't Lexus bankrupted BMW and Mercedes yet?
12-29-05, 04:11 PM
#16
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Almost everybody is always wishing that Lexus "felt" like a BMW. Why?
Trust me, if Lexus wanted to build an M3 beater, they could. They have the greatest resources.
That is not their goal though. Lexus blends the best level of comfort with a enough sport to keep most satisfied.
If Lexus built a bimmer, people would complain that it was too harsh a would wish for a softer, more comfortable ride.
If you want a race car with four doors, buy a BMW.
Otherwise, look toward a Lexus for a balance of perfection.
Trust me, if Lexus wanted to build an M3 beater, they could. They have the greatest resources.
That is not their goal though. Lexus blends the best level of comfort with a enough sport to keep most satisfied.
If Lexus built a bimmer, people would complain that it was too harsh a would wish for a softer, more comfortable ride.
If you want a race car with four doors, buy a BMW.
Otherwise, look toward a Lexus for a balance of perfection.
12-29-05, 09:23 PM
#19
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Spend a few hours at a BMW dealership and you can break down their customers three ways:
50% are women. They have NO appreciation for BMW performance and want a luxurious, nice riding, reliable car. They'd be better off in a Lexus.
35% are status-seeking men. They also have NO appreciation for BMW engineering, drive slowly in corners, and scough at manual transmissions. A Lexus would serve them better.
15% are enthusiasts. Often "M" series owners or non-M manual transmission-equipped owners, this group enjoys and appreciates the unique driving feel and experience of a BMW. They tolerate a few reliability quirks and are endlessly loyal to the brand.
So, 85% of BMW customers would be happier with a Lexus. I think what's kept BMW afloat is Gen X'ers who are starting to earn significant money and commonly choose BMW's 3 series as status symbols. For them, the IS350 just isn't a sufficient reflection of status. As they age, though, they will likely switch to Lexus and not come back.
Lexus has earned its keep with excellent cars.
BMW once made excellent cars, but now only survives because of badge worship.
50% are women. They have NO appreciation for BMW performance and want a luxurious, nice riding, reliable car. They'd be better off in a Lexus.
35% are status-seeking men. They also have NO appreciation for BMW engineering, drive slowly in corners, and scough at manual transmissions. A Lexus would serve them better.
15% are enthusiasts. Often "M" series owners or non-M manual transmission-equipped owners, this group enjoys and appreciates the unique driving feel and experience of a BMW. They tolerate a few reliability quirks and are endlessly loyal to the brand.
So, 85% of BMW customers would be happier with a Lexus. I think what's kept BMW afloat is Gen X'ers who are starting to earn significant money and commonly choose BMW's 3 series as status symbols. For them, the IS350 just isn't a sufficient reflection of status. As they age, though, they will likely switch to Lexus and not come back.
Lexus has earned its keep with excellent cars.
BMW once made excellent cars, but now only survives because of badge worship.
12-29-05, 10:26 PM
#20
Lexus Connoisseur
Originally Posted by genearch
I'm all about the facts my friend 
12-30-05, 04:07 AM
#21
Lexus Fanatic
There is truth on both sides here. BMW's in fact ( there you go, genearch...I'm into some facts too ) DO have what is probably the world's best production-car steering systems and chassis dynamics if road feel is the primary thing you are looking for...especially for power-assisted steering, and of course outside the Lotus Elise it is next to impossible nowadays to find almost any normal production street car without power-assist. I-Drive?...we won't get into that again.....that issue has been debated to the moon and back ( or in some cases to Mars...right, flip? )
But as far as the issue of BMW / Mercedes firmer ride vs. Lexus having a softer ride, not necessarily true. Sometimes yes, sometimes not. The BMW M-cars, no doubt, especially the M3 with its shorter wheelbase, are firm....even harsh....riding. But the standard 325i ( a car I reviewed recently ) was not particularly firm at all in the ride departmrent. It rode no stiffer than many competing cars...and with superb steering feel as well. The non AMG -Mercedes S-Class has a longstanding reputation for a smooth ride combined with good handling....difficult to acheive. Consumer Reports, in its last new-car issue, said the S-Class was the best-riding car they had ever tested, beating even the Lexus LS430.
Now....as far as Lexus products riding ( softer ) than comparable German makes, again yes and no. Certainly the IS300's standard 17" high-performance tire and wheel package was no Town Car in the ride / handling department, though it lacked some of the smooth, precise feel of the 3-series' steering. The GS300 (and especially the GS430 ) also rode a little firmer than other Lexus products. The LS430, granted, has a soft ride ( not quite as soft as an S-Class ) but with much higher quality of course.
And, last, it must also be recognized ( and this is a very important point ) that the trend in the auto industry in general toward regular cars, no matter what the vehicle, its brand, or price line has been relentlessly toward firmer-riding and more responsive, steering-wise, lower-profile tires. So all cars to some extent ride more firmly than they used to. Some SUV's today still have 65 and 70-series tires, but 70's are virtually impossible to find anymore on cars. 60 is about the tallest you are going to find even on cars designed for comfort like the ES330, LS430, Town Car, etc.... Most vehicles today have 45-55 series standard....with some high-powered sports cars as low as 30.
Anyhow......I didn't intend for this to be a long lesson on tire sizes. I just wanted to point out that there was....and is....truth on both sides of the European vs. Lexus debate.
)But as far as the issue of BMW / Mercedes firmer ride vs. Lexus having a softer ride, not necessarily true. Sometimes yes, sometimes not. The BMW M-cars, no doubt, especially the M3 with its shorter wheelbase, are firm....even harsh....riding. But the standard 325i ( a car I reviewed recently ) was not particularly firm at all in the ride departmrent. It rode no stiffer than many competing cars...and with superb steering feel as well. The non AMG -Mercedes S-Class has a longstanding reputation for a smooth ride combined with good handling....difficult to acheive. Consumer Reports, in its last new-car issue, said the S-Class was the best-riding car they had ever tested, beating even the Lexus LS430.
Now....as far as Lexus products riding ( softer ) than comparable German makes, again yes and no. Certainly the IS300's standard 17" high-performance tire and wheel package was no Town Car in the ride / handling department, though it lacked some of the smooth, precise feel of the 3-series' steering. The GS300 (and especially the GS430 ) also rode a little firmer than other Lexus products. The LS430, granted, has a soft ride ( not quite as soft as an S-Class ) but with much higher quality of course.
And, last, it must also be recognized ( and this is a very important point ) that the trend in the auto industry in general toward regular cars, no matter what the vehicle, its brand, or price line has been relentlessly toward firmer-riding and more responsive, steering-wise, lower-profile tires. So all cars to some extent ride more firmly than they used to. Some SUV's today still have 65 and 70-series tires, but 70's are virtually impossible to find anymore on cars. 60 is about the tallest you are going to find even on cars designed for comfort like the ES330, LS430, Town Car, etc.... Most vehicles today have 45-55 series standard....with some high-powered sports cars as low as 30.
Anyhow......I didn't intend for this to be a long lesson on tire sizes. I just wanted to point out that there was....and is....truth on both sides of the European vs. Lexus debate.
12-30-05, 03:23 PM
#24
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by CK6Speed
I'm with you. That is why you get to drive a new BMW 650 and others drive what they drive 
12-30-05, 05:20 PM
#25
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Originally Posted by ti286
Spend a few hours at a BMW dealership and you can break down their customers three ways:
50% are women. They have NO appreciation for BMW performance and want a luxurious, nice riding, reliable car. They'd be better off in a Lexus.
.....
BMW once made excellent cars, but now only survives because of badge worship.
50% are women. They have NO appreciation for BMW performance and want a luxurious, nice riding, reliable car. They'd be better off in a Lexus.
.....
BMW once made excellent cars, but now only survives because of badge worship.
The lady at my office would disagree with you. She LOVEs her 325xi - loves the way it drives and has had zero problems with it. Doesn't care much for the Lexus brand.
I disagree with you as I think they still make excellent cars - very different cars than Lexus that appeal to a very different audience that unfortunately does not match your "scientific" sampling of BMW buyer demographics.
12-30-05, 07:44 PM
#27
Like different types of shoes or clothes or jewelry, not one type of car (or brand of cars) will appeal to the masses. Each car is an extension of someone's personality, and there are all types of styles, not to mention preferences in comfort, performance, handling, technology, and PRICE.
There is a reason why Nike, Vans, and Steve Madden co-exist.
There is a reason why the Gap, Hot Topic, and Giorgio Armani co-exist.
There is a reason why Tiffany's, Cartier, and Bvlgari co-exist.
Therefore, there is a reason why Lexus, Mercedes, and BMW exist. It depends on your STYLE...
There is a reason why Nike, Vans, and Steve Madden co-exist.
There is a reason why the Gap, Hot Topic, and Giorgio Armani co-exist.
There is a reason why Tiffany's, Cartier, and Bvlgari co-exist.
Therefore, there is a reason why Lexus, Mercedes, and BMW exist. It depends on your STYLE...
12-30-05, 08:25 PM
#28
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Originally Posted by PhilipMSPT
Like different types of shoes or clothes or jewelry, not one type of car (or brand of cars) will appeal to the masses. Each car is an extension of someone's personality, and there are all types of styles, not to mention preferences in comfort, performance, handling, technology, and PRICE.
There is a reason why Nike, Vans, and Steve Madden co-exist.
There is a reason why the Gap, Hot Topic, and Giorgio Armani co-exist.
There is a reason why Tiffany's, Cartier, and Bvlgari co-exist.
Therefore, there is a reason why Lexus, Mercedes, and BMW exist. It depends on your STYLE...
There is a reason why Nike, Vans, and Steve Madden co-exist.
There is a reason why the Gap, Hot Topic, and Giorgio Armani co-exist.
There is a reason why Tiffany's, Cartier, and Bvlgari co-exist.
Therefore, there is a reason why Lexus, Mercedes, and BMW exist. It depends on your STYLE...
12-30-05, 08:47 PM
#29
Lexus Fanatic
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Lexus makes wonderfully refined, luxurious and ergonomically great vehicles. They're well targeted to their customers who in general want a high quality, reliable, very comfortable, safe and luxurious advanced vehicle.
BMW makes vehicles focused AROUND the visceral driving experience. This is no joke - they walk the walk as well as talk the talk. They're passionate about the sounds, responsiveness, mechanical feel, feedback, and handling of their vehicles. They make a broad range of vehicles worldwide, some are pretty basic, and some loaded to the gills with luxury goodies, but EVERY ONE is still focused to its target customer around the driving experience. People buy BMWs if they like cars and driving, and often when they don't understand why they like BMWs but they like them better than other vehicles they've driven. Some buy on the image of BMW of course, cuz in general it's a youthful, 'hip' one. I have to say that's how a ton of 3 series are sold to females.
Now the down sides...
Before I bought a Lexus I thought they were all of what I said above, but BORING. The GS400, and then the IS300 were the first two vehicles to break the mold some, but CLEARLY the 2nd gen GS and 1st gen IS are still NOT BMWs. Many of us have taken Lexus vehicles and made them handle better, look better, and go faster, but it's a challenge to take a vehicle where it really wasn't designed to go, and there's trade-offs. The 2nd gen IS ups the 'driving' ante although still doesn't have stellar handling from what I've read. I don't think BMW is worried!
As said, BMWs are focused around driving, and the things Lexus is good at come secondary.
So it depends on your priorities. Buy a BMW, have a blast, but some of its 'quirks' may bug you and it is likely to have a couple more problems than a Lexus. Buy a Lexus, it's likely to be VERY reliable and refined, but pretty boring.
BMW makes vehicles focused AROUND the visceral driving experience. This is no joke - they walk the walk as well as talk the talk. They're passionate about the sounds, responsiveness, mechanical feel, feedback, and handling of their vehicles. They make a broad range of vehicles worldwide, some are pretty basic, and some loaded to the gills with luxury goodies, but EVERY ONE is still focused to its target customer around the driving experience. People buy BMWs if they like cars and driving, and often when they don't understand why they like BMWs but they like them better than other vehicles they've driven. Some buy on the image of BMW of course, cuz in general it's a youthful, 'hip' one. I have to say that's how a ton of 3 series are sold to females.
Now the down sides...
Before I bought a Lexus I thought they were all of what I said above, but BORING. The GS400, and then the IS300 were the first two vehicles to break the mold some, but CLEARLY the 2nd gen GS and 1st gen IS are still NOT BMWs. Many of us have taken Lexus vehicles and made them handle better, look better, and go faster, but it's a challenge to take a vehicle where it really wasn't designed to go, and there's trade-offs. The 2nd gen IS ups the 'driving' ante although still doesn't have stellar handling from what I've read. I don't think BMW is worried!
As said, BMWs are focused around driving, and the things Lexus is good at come secondary.
So it depends on your priorities. Buy a BMW, have a blast, but some of its 'quirks' may bug you and it is likely to have a couple more problems than a Lexus. Buy a Lexus, it's likely to be VERY reliable and refined, but pretty boring.
12-30-05, 09:32 PM
#30
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Am I missing something here? Why can't both brand be whom they are? BMW is sportier, Lexus is more luxury. Both brands have copied one another.
Its not like Lexus is floundering and its not like BMW is. Both are #1 and #2 in sales this year.
And to a Porsche owner, a BMW is pretty much a Lexus in handling and style and in any review, a Porsche handsa BMW it its collective behind. And guess what, Ferraris hand most Porche's their butts too.
My God, what is wrong with liking a car that works, has decent style, luxury and doesn't drive with a steering wheel so firm you need 6 arms to park?
Its not like Lexus is floundering and its not like BMW is. Both are #1 and #2 in sales this year.
And to a Porsche owner, a BMW is pretty much a Lexus in handling and style and in any review, a Porsche handsa BMW it its collective behind. And guess what, Ferraris hand most Porche's their butts too.
My God, what is wrong with liking a car that works, has decent style, luxury and doesn't drive with a steering wheel so firm you need 6 arms to park?