ti286

Their cars are superior:

1. Quality. Lexus consistently scores highest in reliability (Consumer Reports), and BMW and Benz are below average. Entire websites are devoted to the electrical failures of new BMWs and Benzes. No such websites for Lexus.

2. Performance. Each Lexus out-performs the BMW or Benz at its price point (GS430 is quicker than E350 or 525i, IS350 is quicker than C320 or 330i).

3. Resale value. Nothing depreciates slower than a Lexus. Also a function of reliability. Who really wants to buy a used 7 series or S class? Not many--they depreciate like rocks.

4. Dealership experience. Surveys consistently show Lexus to be tops.

There are only 3 areas left for Lexus to conquer:

1. High performance (ie, AMG and the 'M' series). An AMG-like brand is in development, though, and the new LS series will have a hybrid with 450+ hp and about 22 MPG. This has never been a priority for Lexus because the M and AMG series represent less than 10% of the market.

2. Driving feel. BMW particularly has them beat on this point. Lexus aims for the bulk of the market that wants a plush ride, but if they could develop a driver-adjustable suspension that could be soft or BMW-firm per the driver's choice, BMW is dead in the water.

3. Manual transmissions. If the GS430 or IS350 were available with manuals, they would certainly capture much of BMWs customers, who have no one else to turn to for a stick-equipped sedan.

The only things MB and BMW would be left with are their names and snob appeal. And that's not enough to support a successful marque: Look at the decline of Jaguar.

encore888

For now, and for the foreseeable future, Mercedes and BMW have reputations and fame far above the level of Jaguar...and that 'snob appeal' goes a long way. With their good (Mercedes) to stellar (BMW) sales, coupled with the high profitability of luxury cars (e.g. Lexus vehicles supposedly have a 20% profit margin), they are still in good shape.

I would split hairs here though, between #2 best-selling BMW and #3 Benz...it seems that the driving experience results in a particularly close attachment/fanbase for BMW's...whereas Mercedes Benz seems to have suffered the greatest brunt of quality/reliability controversy (although BMW has its fair share).

Right now BMW is #1-selling Lexus' closest competition. I think this will be the case for the near future, at least. Which is why we're seeing Lexus strike back with the IS and GS. WIth L-Finesse, and future expanded lineups to hopefully extend its supremacy in the luxury market into an even stronger, more dominant position.

It's interesting to talk about the demise of BMW and Mercedes; for sure of all luxury marques, Lexus has come closest to challenging them and has surpassed them in sales for 6 years now. But the luxury market is large enough to support these top 3 tier companies, and also the lesser companies are doing pretty well--so if the smaller companies can survive, BMW/Mercedes likely can too.

...although the recent round of Mercedes layoffs+cost-cutting measures is Daimler Chrysler's way of aiding profitability; plus I'm sure BMW saves money by building in S. Africa instead of job-starved Germany.

While we Lexus drivers get vehicles build to the world's highest standards in Japan and Canada!

Plus competition is good, I would like to see Mercedes and BMW and Lexus keep challenging each other to up the ante over the years.

O. L. T.

iTrader: (17)

It doesn't look like you are asking a question. You pretty much answered it in 1 through 3.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

True. The reliability of a Lexus sure does beat BMW and most any other car out there, but the BMW and Mercedes are not as bad as people make them out to be. Its not like those cars leave you stranded every week. To many, having some problems once or even twice a year is still worth it. At least BMW is not below average but still above industry reliability average.

You have a point about price, but those cars are not a direct comparison to the GS430. All those cars mentioned are V6s or I6s and not 4.3LV8s.

This is arguable. According to one posts discussed elsewhere here, BMW actually has the highest resale value. Maybe certrain Lexus cars hold higher values than certain BMW, or Mercedes cars, but on an average I'm just not sure. Right now the market value for my SC400 is about the same as an Accord only a few years newer. Kind of suchs when one was about $55K and the other was about $25K.


I would agree. On a whole it seems like Lexus accross the nation has a better reputation than other makers accross the nation. However, Lexus themselves have their share of crappy dealerships.

Of those 3 points listed, I would say the only one Lexus needs to get a clue about is the driving feel. It doesn't matter if they conquer as you put it #1 and #3. If they don't get the driving feel and driving dynamics of the car more in line with how the German cars are it really doesn't matter. Lexus will never go that route though so as for now there really is nothing to discuss. I personally own two Lexus cars right now and 4 total in my family. I bought Lexus because of the reliability and build quality. My Lexus cars do have problems, but on a whole they are work horses that keep on going. However, I have owned BMW and other more sporty feeling cars and despite cars like BMW being less reliable and more problematic (Which is why I traded the BMW for a Lexus in the first place) I probably will buy BMW again because Lexus simply doesn't offer the driving feel and driving dynamics in a car that I want. Too me, I'll keep the Lexus cars as a reliable daily driver, but when I want more fun out of my cars I'll look elsewhere.

mmarshall

I don't think it is either the HP / torque issue at M-B or the admittedly superb driving feel of BMW's that keep them in buisness despite poor reliability and crappy electronics. Many luxury-car buyers in this price range tend to live in the past, and despite the fact that it is 2005-2006, are still mentally living in the 1980's when these two nameplates dominated the imported luxury-car market. BMW, though the company has not formally admitted it until very recently, HAS suffered and lost sales from the Chris Bangle designs, and the increasingly poor reliability reputation of M-B electronics is starting to hurt, too. But one thing still helps keep M-B in buisness , and it IS legitimate.....the almost unparalled safety and crashworthiness of the Mercedes body structure, which is approached or equalled only by Volvo.

spwolf

Lexus will never bankrupt any manufacturer. Only BMW can destroy BMW, same as MB slowly destroying itself.

Aditionally, since Lexus does not want to sell more than 300,000-350,000 cars per year in the US, that leaves about million sold to other luxury brands.

Cars are highly individual purchases, there is no way one manufacturer can take whole market by themselves in free trade countries.

What you are suggesting has no way of happening.

Hameed

I have seen a few pictures of crashed 2nd Gen GS's and I would argue that it approaches if not equals the MB's in crash worthiness and solidity.

1SICKLEX (mike) can chime on his personal experience when he crashed his GS. I do not know how other Lexus models fare in this department, however I do know that Lexus used the E-class as it's standard when they designed the 2nd gen GS. Even non crash related things like the turning circle - it was made even more tight than an E-class - just to compete with the germans.

dsnowgs4

Well I think there is a STATUS / EGO x-factor involved in this equation that we are not looking at.

I know for a fact that on the west coast of this country Asian cars and European cars mix very well, meaning they both sell well. But on the East Coast its a different story.

I have relatives who live in Conn, and when I spend time in Greenwich Conn, (a city that has one of the highest income per houshold in the country) I dont see any Lexus or Acura products. It must lliterally be a 20-1 ratio of European to Asian cars in that part of the country. No one cares about Lexus or Acura for that matter. They sit on the opposite side of the fence, and they feel that ONLY the european car makers build quality products.

My uncle who lives there owns a Bentley Cont GT, Merc SL55 AMG, a BMW 545, had a Porsche 996 cabrio, and a CL500.

When I was looking for my Lex I considered a BMW, but my uncle told me, "I would not own a BMW that did not have a warranty. He admited that they are too expensive to fix outside of the warranty" But as you can see he still owns a new BMW.

What I am trying to say is that all your points are great, and I agree with all of them. But in some parts of this country people wont even consider Japanese cars because of the History and reputation of the European brands.

Plus you cant argue with the instant driving gratification that these european cars give over the Lexus. That is just a fact. Manual transmission options and such...

People who have that much money dont care about the real numbers, dep ect, they just care about what the neighbors think.

And the fact is neighbors think BMW and Mercedes are better than Lexus.
OH and speaking to your Jaguar Comment... My uncle was looking at them until he realized that FORD owned them. Jaguar now means Ford, not the luxury brand Jaguar.

lkirchner

Did you take an extra spoonful of naivete with your pablum this morning?

tetra7

What is your problem? You've been on many different forums posting this...friggin troll.

INHOCJP

Why would running BMW and MB out of business be a good thing? I for one hope MB can improve its quality control. If that ever happened, I would definitely not mind purchasing one, since I find MB styling extremely attractive.

Competition is a good thing. As long as manufacturers keep improving and raising the bar, its the consumer who wins.

Mattress

DAMN good thread... had fun reading this one... i agree with mmarshall however. CK6Speed has valid points as well... keep this debate going!!!

toy4two

Lexus doesn't have a sporty image like a BMW, there is no Lexus Equivelent to the M models from BMW or the AMG models from MB.

The IS is NO M3. Lexus doesn't have any racing credibility like BMW. Toyota does though, if they could find a way to make a TRD Lexus, maybe call it a LRD and go race Le Mans or something.

If Lexus could just come out with a sportier handling, firmer, faster car they could challange BMW. But Lexus is know for cushy and comfortable with reliablility to write home about.

Mattress

genearch, maybe this is why your a super moderator ... good points man; btw, dont u just love VDS reports... the true facts... i have this years from the newspaper laminated and keep it for this purpose.

LexFather

Yup.
Fact of the matter is, technically, Lexus will never soley bankrupt BMW or Benz, from a business standpoint. Even GM, is close, but still hasn't declared it. So it won't happen.

Little known fact, BMW is still owned by a FAMILY, it is not publically traded. And BMW was the most profitable carmaker until Porsche took over recently. BMW is still in the top 3 in profit. BMW makes the most per car sale than any car maker. GM is dead last.

BMW is BMW, the funny thing is the brand almost WENT bankrupt in the 1950s and almost was bought by MERCEDES BENZ!!

BMW also has one of the strongest brands and images out there. They can be base 320 diesal sedans and all people see are the propeller badge and images of sport

BMW= hella profit, period.

Onto Mercedes Benz which is now DAIMHLER CHRYSLER. Remember, they basically bought Chrysler in what 1998. Initially, Merceses was the unit making profits and Chrysler was losing hundreds of millions.

Well guess what, its the other way around now. Mercedes has lost tons of income because they continue to have to pay out and absorb all their warrenty costs. Also, sales in the USA are stagnant and are declining and the USA is their biggest profit maker.

But they also will never go banktrupt, but I must say they are VERY vunerable with thier image taking a hit worldwide in concerns to quality and Chrysler is doing well now but will that keep up?

Mercedes and Daimhler merged in the 1920s b/c of competition. There were over 80 car makers back then. Also, both companies survived WWI and the huge currency crisis that happened.

All in all,LEXUS has made both better in regards to more features and quality and looks (well in Benz's case). BMW has made Lexus better by making them offer sportier cars and Benz has made Lexus better by being a luxury car leader for sometime.