rominl

iTrader: (4)

we shall see. i wish they just keep on doing NA and not go with FI though

doug_999

I think they are stuck - that darn Lexus comes out with a 300+ hp motor and BMW needs to compete. Putting a bigger engine in the 3-series is not really an option because they will lose the incredible balance the car has - and then all of the comparos

Of course the new M3 will have a V8 so my theory may be bunk

rominl

iTrader: (4)

yeah that's true, even with the current m3 engine that's "just" 333hp. dunno, i always admire how bimmer stay ahead with their NA engines pushing more power

Gojirra99

I have NO interest in the turbo 335i whatsover, I prefer NA, & the new V8 M3 would be an awesome car.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, but their engines are the most unreliable, fragile junk known to the human kind. If anything, I personally admire Honda for their NA engines, but BMW are just "overclocked" crap waiting to blow up.

doug_999

Ooops, I guess I shouldn't have bought a BMW!

BTW, couldn't Lexus be blamed for producing some overclocked engines these days too? IS350 anyone?

STIG

Please don't say that.

BMW engines may be not as reliable as Lexus engines but thier M motors are the masterpiece of engineering. I really admire their new V10 NA engine. It's just simply amazing. It's not exactly "crap or fragile junk" as you said.

I like Hondas but they have a long way to go before they can catch up with BMWs. Let's not forget about that.

Och

iTrader: (3)

The m3 engine is one of the most unreliable, problematic engines, it is a know fact. As far as M5 V10 goes, it is yet to prove itself, but judging from the fact that it has a "power mode button" that switches it from making 400hp to 500hp, it probably won’t last long if you run it in power mode constantly.



Is that really so? Let's see, Honda pioneered VTEC, BMW (and everyone else) copied it. The 15 year old NSX makes almost the same power as M3, yet it doesn’t require synthetic oil, and is far more reliable. The S2000 engine makes more power per liter than any other production car engine, and does so seamlessly and reliably.

You can be assured, if Honda felt like making a car to compete directly with M3, they would make a far superior automobile. As far as catching up to BMW, I believe Honda already outsells them by eleventhy gazillion times.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

totally agree with you, andrew

what are the problems with the m3 engines except the initial blown engines? i thought once that was fixed it's been pretty good. please count out people who put on FI and bow the engine, i can care less about that group.

and i don't really buy the "if honda wants to make it, they will win...." thing. yes i am pretty sure that's true, given how honda totally ruled the racing industry yrs ago. but that was yrs ago, and to me, i count it if i actually see the car, like the s2000 and the nsx. and while honda might be really good on the engines, they are lacking the overall package too imho. nsx and the s2000 are the only two cars i will pay attention to. it's almost like saying toyota can make some super powerful engines as well (seeing how the gte engine being one of the legendary ones out there), but unless i see a real super car from toyota, i am not putting my money there

Och

iTrader: (3)

I'm not exactly familiar with the M3 engine to know each and every one of its little glitches, but I do know that it burns oil and that's considered normal by BMW, it required Mobil 1 synthetic to run properly, so its very picky, and there are tons of posts all over the internet with all kinds of problems.


The thing is, Honda isn't exactly joining this "hp war", but instead they take their time to perfect it's technology and come out with amazing product, they don't pull quickies and then issue recalls. The NSX was unrivaled when it came out, and is still very much competitive. S2000's engine knows no equal, and quite frankly, all in all the Accord will give a 325 a run for the money.


If anyone is lacking on the overall package, it's gotta be BMW. All they have going for them is hype and steering feel, which doesn't contribute to the actual handling btw. The only thing Honda is lacking at the moment is RWD and V8, but hell, the FWD TL is pulling .9g on skidpad, and as a package it's much better than a 5 series, let alone 3 series.

[/QUOTE]

GTE is a great motor, but it's certainly not a supercar type of motor. I'm sure Toyota will eventually make a real super car, but that's probably not their top priority, so I'm not putting my money there either. In fact, I'd much rather see them make LS600 superboat than a supercar.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

I have to somewhat disagree. As an owner of Lexus cars, an Acura NSX, and past BMWs and probably one in the near future, BMW is not lacking in over all car. In my eyes none of them really are. BMW steering and driving dynamics is not hype. For may of us that is what makes any car. I can put all the suspension and mods on my SC400 and make is faster and handle better than a BMW, but the second I jump into a stock BMW all that doesn't matter. The BMW still feels and drives better. It doesn't handle better, but lets be honest. Who is taking any car to the limit anyway? The NSX does make the BMW feel like a Lexus in comparison though. So yes, I am a huge Honda fan and NSX fan, but I'm still very much a BMW fan as well and for a fun daily driver I would rather be in a BMW than my SC400 anyday. For reliabitiy though I'm in the SC400. The reason why I have grown so against my SC400 is because of the steering feel and driving dynamics. If Lexus took that part from BMW there would be no need for BMW. If BMW put more reliability into their cars there would be no need for Lexus. The question is who will be the first company to offer all that/ Honda/Acura? BMW? Lexus? Mercedes?

rominl

iTrader: (4)

umm..... honda is into the hp war. very much imho. their previous tl-s, pushing 260hp, was a clear example. but they did it very bad actually, making the engine so powerful and what not, however not even able to stablize the tranny to make it a strong one.

among the main guys, i think toyota is the only one who's not into the hp wars at all. the is350 is probably the only one in recents yrs from toyota where they are super competitive to others on the hp numbers. all others are really behind.

it depends on how you define supercar motors i guess. if you don't count the supra tt as super car, then you will leave out the nsx or the skyline gtr as well. imho, those cars are all jdm supercars, they can really run with euro supercars no problem

Och

iTrader: (3)

Well, like you said, most people are not taking their car to the limits, and there are cars out there that may not have the steering feel of a BMW, but they do everything else better (for the money).

For instance, Honda Accord V6 MT - 240 hp, great, spacious interior - replace stock all season tires with something more performance oriented and for $10k less you have a much better car than a 325. For 3k extra you can get a TL which can keep up with 330 in every way besides straight line acceleration, but you will ride in comfort. Want something even more fun? Try g35 or the new IS.

Basically, there is no perfect car, but in my opinion, BMW (3 series in particular) is hands down the worst. Cheap interior, cheap materials, horrible audio system, poor reliability, overhyped handling, and just less bang for the buck.

As far as your SC, you have to keep in mind that it was designed with "Japanese Eldorado" in mind, and also, it was designed for 3.0 motor and the hevy 4.0 option makes it handle even worse. I experience similar thing with my GS430 - it's handling is pretty poor compared to my old GS300 despite increased tire width and better tires. But then again, I didn't buy it for the handling, I bought it for other qualities. If I was looking for a car in the 3 series category, I'd go with either g35c or is350, or even the c350, but the 3 series wouldn't even be on my list.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

That is kind of my point though. It doesn't matter if the other car out performs or out handles anther car if neither car is taken to the limit or being tracked. The feel if the car would now be more importent. At least to me.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Well, the new TL is pushing the same 260hp, and they are not planning a V8 or F/I. Next gen Camry is rumored to have around 250hp, so I wouln't say Honda is into HP war.

I'd say they are more into hp/liter war, with s2000 pushing 120 hp/l and nsx nearly 100 hp/l, and like I said before, their high output engines are reliable unlike BMW's.

Yeah, but then GS/LS/SC with 300hp aren't nothing to be laughed either. Besides the new IS there's also the Avalon with 280hp, next gen Camry with 250hp, and the upcoming 4.6 v8 which I would say should have at least 350hp. Sounds much like an "hp war" to be.


Correct, it depends how you define supercar motor and the supercar as a whole. In my opinion the Supra itself wasn't a super car, although back in the days the GTE motor could very well be used to power one. On the other hand you have Lotus Elise which is very much a supercar but it's powered by Celica motor. Like you said - it all depends on how you define a supercar.