While I do agree with you, keep in mind that the next Camry is getting a 260hp engine, which probably means next ES will have 290 (has to top Avalon's 280, doesnt it?). Of course, Acura will still have the edge when it comes to handling, and Honda's manual trannies are hands down the best, but Acura will need to add more HP to the engine. It is very disappointing to me that the new TL has the same HP as previous generation TL-S.

 

I agree with you 100%.

TL and ES have nothing in common except they're both FWD.

 

Cool review. . I agree with most said with your review. I honestly believe that the TL despite its tranny problems adn rattles that it is one of the better entry level cars in its class. Easily the best FWD performance vehicle in its range(then again not many FWD cars in its class to begin with). Though it could use some better rubber(even the summer tires were kinda bad), I've experienced a lot of tire roll when taking corners fast. I've driven countless TL's over the past 2 years and I must agree with the ergonomics. Its outstanding, especially with the manual tranny. The armrest and shifter are at the perfect location where you can rest your elbow and at the flick of the wrist shift gears. Incredible. With the auto I thought it was fine. At low RPM's it was plenty powerful for everyday use I thought. And the exhaust note is great. Before the new IS-series, this was my favorite entry level car. Beautiful balance of sport and lux at a great price.

Oh and a correction. The TL 6-speed is the same price as the Auto model. Its not listed at a cheaper price.

 

Good write up and review MMarshall, I have always been impressed with the TL and my parents are very happy with their TL and CL.

I agree with most of what you said about the new TL, the transmission issues have been resolved with the new design in 2004. I think their is a pretty big difference between the TL and TSX especially in the front and rear. As for not being convinced if it is worth much over a v-6 Accord I would say it is. It is much better looking, has a nicer interior, more standard features, more performance engine and handling wise, and a better dealership experience. I don't really find the Accord and TL that similiar at all and feel it is well worth it to pay more for the TL. I find the Camry and ES330 much more similiar in looks and performance and would be more concerned if the ES is really worth paying all that much more then the Camry.

As for what the TL compares to most of the comparisons for the TL are with other sports/luxury sedans like the 3 series, G35, IS, A4, C class, etc. I have never really seen a comparison between a ES and a TL but have seen several with a CL against a 3 series coupe, TL against the 3 series and G35. I have never seen too many comparisons with a ES and G35. Just because a car has fwd it does not mean it can't be sporty or can't compete with sports sedans. The ES is a little to floaty and does not provide enough feedback to really compete with sports sedans like the TL. Yes they may share a general similiar drivetrain and engine setup but they are pretty different. Actually I think the Avalon is more cross shoped with the ES then a TL would. The TLs I have driven have felt very crisp and handle well and even though it is fwd it handled better then many rwd cars I have driven Although most power is available higher up in the rev range I would not say low down power was lacking in any way and it felt stronger then the ES I drove. The engines do take a little longer to break in for power and since you did not go over 4000rpm I see why you may not have been as impressed with the power.

One thing Acura needs to do with the TL is offer it with real wood trim in the interior, although the simulated wood looks very good and may be a little more durable then real wood it needs to be offered at this price range especially when most of its competition offers it and the TL will continue to be critisized for that as long as it has simulated wood.

 

I too am going to have to side with the members above. Aside from both cars being FWD, the two cars are nothing alike. If we were talking about the previous generation TL I would say the ES may be cross shopped with the TL a lot. But not with the 04+ TL. Personally I have interest in the current TL even if it is FWD (That doesn't matter too much to me), the BMW 3 series, and Mercedes C class, the G35 coupe, the Audi A4 class cars, and the Lexus GS. These are the cars I crossed shopped/referenced. Never did the ES330 ever enter into my mind because it is just not sporty enough. I do agree though that class wise they supposed to be in the same near luxury class of cars. Other than that they appeal to two totally different people.

 

Curious....

How does the rear passenger seating of the TL compare against:
IS350
G35 (4door)
es330

 

mmarshall may be better able to answer that but having been in them all the TL is the roomiest in the rear, but it's probably only fractions of an inch larger than the ES330 or G35 sedan. I think where you feel it most is the width - the TL is pretty wide so there is a lot of hip/shoulder room. The headroom/legroom are almost identical to the G35/ES330. The IS series is quite a bit smaller than those three in the rear.

 

Rear head/leg/shoulder/hip
TL: 37.2/34.9/55.7/53.80
ES: 36.9/35.6/55.8/55.5
G_: 37.9/33.6/55.5/54.1
IS: 36.7/30.6/52.7/53.7


As for the other argument. I think that the TL & ES are very comparable on paper: both are entry level luxury sedans w/ front wheel drive & 6 cylinders. The driving experience is where they differ as one is more of a sports sedan while the other is more of a luxury sedan. So depending on what exactly you are trying to compare, I think it is fair to put them in the same category ... or not ...

 

Thanks...mag....you may have gotten me on that one. What complicates it is that both the automatic and manual Navs and non-Navs are considered separate price lines with separate stickers....and you have to look carefully at the heading on each one. That is s quirk of Acura's marketing and pricing strategy.

 

OK, guys.....after reading all of your answers I respect all your opinions. Some of you agree with me...some don't. I accept that. One of them we will just agree to disagree on. I know some of you don't consider the TL and ES to be primary competitors. I do.....but I agree that even though they share similiar V6 FWD platforms they are relatively different cars and are designed for two different purposes.....one sport / luxury, the other primarily luxury. so I'll just let it go at that.

That said, you guys who already own TL's.......enjoy them.
Those of you who are interested in one....at least you know what to expect. Happy Shopping.

 

This is an important point with Honda and Acura products. Unlike most cars where it is a good idea to change the factory oil and filter at 1000-1500 miles to get all the shavings and impurities out and then every 3000-5000 mles after that, Honda products require that the factory break-in oil be left in at least 3000 miles.

7500 miles, regardless of what the book says, is stretching it with almost any car UNLESS you are using synthetic or driving under really ideal conditions......little stop-and-go driving, mostly long trips, moderate-to warm air temperatures, gettting the engine warm and keeping it warm for long periods, etc.....
In most cases 3000-5000 miles and 3-5 months is best.

 

The TL is definitely roomier in the back than the IS...about even with the ES. The IS, by 4-door sedan standards, is notorious for having a tight back seat.