jrock65

I got your point about mileage vs. Avensis. It's just anecdotal evidence at best and the cars weren't subject to any statistical testing measures.

It's hardly any backing to support the generalization that the Sonata 2.4 gets worse mileage than the Camry 2.4, both of which have EPA 24/33.

You get anecdotal evidence all over the internet about all sorts of cars. Some people get good mileage and some people get bad mileage, with the exact same car. The reports vary wildly. Lots of posts in Edmunds about this, for both Camry and Sonata. My personal experience bears this out as well.

CR got 16 mpg city for the Camry 2.4 5A. Not easy on the gas either. I expect the Sonata and 2007 Camry to get about that amount in city driving.

Gian

They showed the new Camry at the Los Angeles Auto Show. Why didn't anyone mention anything? It's not even on the website!

spwolf

not to steal NAIAS show?

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

About EPA figures - it's all irrelevant as they just came out with new standards (about time!).

About this new Camry, nice job Toyota, although the pic of that light blue one makes the side profile design look a bit too busy / confused.

TRDFantasy

Ok lets break it down then, features to features.

The Sonata GLS (http://hyundaiusa.com/vehicle/sonata/trim/gls4-cyl.aspx) has:

2.4-liter, DOHC, 4-cylinder engine
- Dual front airbags, front side-impact airbags, and roof-mounted side-curtain airbags
- Anti-lock Braking System (ABS)
- Electronic Stability Control (ESC) with Traction Control System (TCS)
- Front seat active head restraints
- Tilt, leather-wrapped steering wheel
- Leather-wrapped shift **** (automatic transmission only)
- 4-wheel disc brakes
- Remote keyless entry system with alarm
- Power windows, locks, and heated mirrors
- AM/FM/CD/MP3 Audio System
- Air conditioning
- Cruise control
- Cabin air-filtration system

- 4-speed automatic transmission
- 16” alloy wheels with Michelin® tires
- Steering wheel audio controls
- Driver seat adjustable lumbar support
- Automatic light control
- Trip computer
- Premium door sill plates
- Floor mats
- Fog lights
- Chrome window belt molding
- Metalgrain accents (with gray interior)
- Woodgrain accents (with beige interior)

The 2007 Camry LE (based on preliminary features: http://pressroom.toyota.com/presstxt...007Camry_f.pdf) has:

• P215/60 R16 tires with 16-inch steel wheels
• Temporary spare tire
• Tire pressure monitor system
• Halogen headlamps with auto on/off feature
• Daytime running lights
• Dual color-keyed power outside mirrors
• Optitron meters
• AM/FM/CD/MP3 audio system with six speakers, 160 watts
• Audio auxiliary jack
• Air conditioning with pollen filter
• Power door locks with anti-lockout feature
• Power windows with driver’s auto-down
• Cruise control
• Manual tilt steering wheel with audio control
• Manual telescopic steering wheel
• Courtesy lamp
• Maintenance indicator
• Driver and front passenger advanced airbag system
• Seat-mounted side airbags
• Side curtain airbags
• Driver knee airbag
• Anti-lock Braking System (ABS)
• Foot pedal parking brake (AT)/Hand lever parking brake (MT)
• Rear center headrest
• Engine immobilizer
• Fabric seat and door trim
• Six-way manual driver’s seat and four-way manual passenger seat
• Four-wheel disc brakes
• 60/40 split fold-down rear seat

Eight-way power driver’s seat
Remote keyless entry system


-----

With the Camry LE, features not present on the Sonata GLS are things such as a tire pressure monitor system, tilt AND telescopic steering wheel, a driver's knee airbag, 60/40 split fold down rear seat, plus 8 way power drivers seat and 4 way passenger seat.

Two obvious things the Sonata GLS has over the Camry LE is alloy wheels and traction control. I was hoping for VSC to be standard on the Camry, but it looks like it won't be. In defense of the Camry though, EBD and BA come standard on all Camry models, and the Sonata does not even have EBD and BA available as options.

All other features are about the same, more or less, with possibly the trip computer being the only noticeable feature I can see the Sonata GLS having over the Camry LE.

Overall, I still see the Camry LE having more features. Even assuming that it will likely cost a bit more than the Sonata, the Camry probably will have a better interior with more refinement, and a better rear area. The reason I keep emphasizing the rear is because this IS a family sedan after all, and you tend to have kids or other adults sitting in the rear. The Camry in this case has a better rear seat area. Even the outgoing Camry, in the recent C & D comparo was judged as having the best overall rear area, better than the Sonata, Fusion, or Accord.

Lastly, let us not forget the issue of resale value, where the Camry still trumps the Sonata.

I find it commendable that Toyota can compete so effectively with Hyundai on overall value.

TRDFantasy

New standards won't be relevant until the 2008 model year.

Besides, regarding the Camry's EPA figures, the new V6 from the Avalon should be pretty efficient. Looking at all the reviews of the Avalon out there, most reviews tend to get above EPA ratings, while some of them at worst matching or getting slightly below. In C & D family sedan review for example Avalon got 23mpg in mixed driving, far and away the most fuel efficient in the comparison. Popular Mechanics did a comparison too, and they also had the Avalon as most fuel efficient in their comparo, getting an astounding 28mpg in their mixed driving test.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

I remember when family sedans (Honda Accords for example) used to get 30mpg easy!

Now they're weighed down with a dozen airbags, electric everything, bigger wheels, etc., etc.

jrock65

Sonata GLS has 60/40 split rear seats. Sonata GLS also has a 4 way passenger seat. In fact, all cars sold in the US have a 4 way passenger seat.

Sonata has EBD standard. Also, I don't agree that the Camry LE has more features.

Sonata GLS features (not on Camry LE):

Stability control
Traction control
Alloy wheels
Fog lights
Heated mirrors
Leather steering wheel and shift ****
Trip computer
Alarm system

Camry LE features (not on Sonata GLS):

5 speed auto
Telescopic wheel
Driver knee airbag
Brake assist
Tire pressure monitoring system
Power driver seat

Agreed. But remember that a lot of people shopping in this segment keep their cars for 6+ years, where resale value differentials become minimal.

videcormeum

I don't see that resale is a very big deal in this segment. These cars are reliable enough that folks wouldn't need to offload them for that reason. And since people that buy and drive family sedans usually have lots of other obligations, they'll probably typically select long-term auto loans which drives the cost of borrowing up. The only situation in which book value might make a difference is if you need to borrow against your asset (vehicle).

Of course it doesn't make much sense to buy things that depreciate unless you need something to borrow against. (Most people with steady jobs and good credit but a lot of obligations should probably lease their vehicles to minimize cash outflows in order to try and save.)

I wouldn't pay any more for a vehicle in the family box-on-wheels class than absolutely necessary. The Sonata takes the cake here.

M.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

didn't get to read the press release until today overall i think it's ok, interior is just getting better and better, but the exterior i am not sure, especially the front grille, that's pretty horriblei hav eto say @_@ as a family sedan, i can't really complain i guess

LexFather

Is it just me or a loaded Camry makes some entry level luxury cars and even cars like the Maxima, Passat etc like they need to seriously step their game up?

spwolf

i think the main difference will be refinement of the interior. It will be a lot closer to Lexus and main departure from Camry before (even though Camry had best materials inside, it was very plain).

mmarshall

The hybrid models ( and possibly some diesel models later on ) will help deal with that problem.

jrock65

Does anyone know the main differences between Toyota nav systems and Lexus nav systems?

XeroK00L

That when powered up, the Lexus unit displays a huge Lexus logo in the middle of the screen?

I honestly do not expect them to be any different, except for the LS460 which will be the first among Toyota/Lexus vehicles to incorporate real-time traffic data.