spwolf

oh, most definetly. I could also probably say that MB sells most V8's in Europe (much more than BMW actually). Lets not even mention Audi :-).

<VENOM>

he, yes thats what I meant, I meant it in respect to the big benz's, the smaller stuff is OK but S-Class V6, CLS V6, E-Class V6 all need V8, I just have the old school thinking where certain cars should have certain features and thats that.

newr

Why would car makers especially MB lie to the world when they say such engine makes xxx torque from range A to B? Isn't that a LITTLE risky to lie and ruin their reputation and credibility?

Trust them or not is your choice, but different car makers chose to show their # in different ways whether it is graph, range, peak and etc... it doesn't mean one is better than the other.

I did not say different torque curve, I said different result depending all those variables.

TRDFantasy

First off, why are you even mentioning the left graph? Our discussion does not even involve the left graph, as the left graph is Toyota's 4.3L 3UZ-FE V8. The right graph is the one we are discussing, and the right graph is the power curve for the IS350's engine.

You're very naive if you believe that for every torque range that German makers give, torque remains completely flat . It's just not possible.

If you honestly believe such a foolish notion, prove to me this is the case by showing me power curves for some of the German engines where torque is given as a range.

Toyota COULD have used range, and could have said something along the lines of 250 - 260 lb-ft torque at 2000 - 3000 RPM.



Here is another graph of the 2GR-FSE's power curve. This proves torque remains flat on the low end between 2000 - 3000 RPM, experiences a very slight drop off near 4000 RPM, and then surges toward its peak beyond 4000 RPM. Looking at the graph, torque remains *above* 250 lb-ft even beyond 6000 RPM, and only falls below 250 lb-ft at about 6500 RPM. If this isn't a flat torque in your eyes, then I don't know what is. If you exclude the peak, then torque remains almost completely flat from 2000 - 6000 RPM. The 2GR-FSE is characterized by two peaks or humps of torque, one on the low end, and one on the high end of the power curve. Mid-range torque still remains strong, but torque peak does not occur at midrange, unlike most engines. Furthermore, most engine only have one *peak* so to speak, and to see two peaks like this engine is quite uncommon and rare. Even more so, it's uncharacteristic for V6 engines to have such strong torque both on the low end and high end.

How is torque range more informational? Regardless of whether the torque is actually given as a range or not, all engines STILL have a *peak* torque. In those german engines, they DO have a peak torque that is reached. German makers are giving you one thing, but excluding another thing. They fail to give you peak torque, but they give you a range. Problem is, the range is vague specifically *because* it's not a power curve, and you still don't know exactly where the power lies.

newr

Horsepower={torque * engine speed}/5252
You can graph a power curve with the torque range but you can't do a graph with only a single peak torque value.

spwolf

dude you are out of it, toyota shows their hp/torque in the pics. Having an press release that says how engine has more than this and that, is definetly not same as showing actual pic of the curve.

so i dont know where you turn on or off, but its past time :-).

newr

agree.......

TRDFantasy

You don't get it do you? What are you even arguing about anymore? The torque range cannot give you a torque curve, because you won't know what the curve will exactly look like.

And I still refuse to believe torque remains completely flat within that range, and I have yet to see any power curves of German engines that have torque provided as a range.

jrock65

Does anyone know when Toyota first used direct injection in its cars (in Japan or otherwise)?

TRDFantasy

Toyota developed their first Direct injection engine in the late 90s, which was the 1AZ-FSE. It's a direct injection version of the AZ 4 cyl engine used in many Toyotas today. I know for sure the engine was available in MY 2000 models of the Rav 4, and Avensis in Europe. The engine was also available in Japan, but I believe in was released in Japan earlier, in 1998 or 1999 maybe.

jrock65

Is the 2006 GS300 the first time that Toyota used direct injection in a V6 engine?

XeroK00L

No, that same engine has been in use in the Crown and Mark X for a year before the GS300 was released.

Mr Johnson

Not to get too into it but this is kind of like the HP discussions that Rolls would have. Rather than a number they would simply quote "adequate". Sort of like the MB TQ range. Once you get to a *minimum* of 500 Nm of TQ across a range that broad it can simply be termed "adequate"!

That said... Here is the v12 (sl65) graph and the new v8 graph. Note that the v8 isn't "flat" but it is above 500 Nm for most of the rev range which is good enough for me.


and



Here's a pretty flat TQ curve for a Lexus V8:

TRDFantasy

As far as I remember, Direct Injection V6 Toyota engines have been available since 2004 on the Toyota Crown, and on the 2005 Mark-X (n Japan). The 2006 GS300 is the first North American car to use a direct injected Toyota V6.

TRDFantasy

I'm very interested in seeing dyno curves of N/A V6 and V8 engines from Mercedes, or VW, where torque is given as a range. Showing torque curves for AMG engines is not the best comparison, and as I recall, AMG usually give specific numbers for torque for their engines.