RON430

You know, after I did that last response to Doug I thought about these manufacturer supply numbers. I don't doubt for a minute that Lexus says they have 20 days of cars around and that is one of the lowest in the industry. I have never thought about this number much but obviously it is some kind of average over the whole car line. If I focus on the admittedly limited volume GS430 which just sold under 300 units, a 20 day suppy is under 200 cars in North America and I find it hard to believe that there are that few here. We are sort of going round and round in circles but with the low sales of the GS430, and the GS300 for that matter, and those new engines coming, let alone the hybrid, I would bet there aren't a lot coming in. Are we over reaching saying the lack of sales is due to lack of supply? Who knows? But of all the sales numbers reported here, the Lexus numbers for cars might be pretty strange until the new engines and the LS and ES make it out there. I'm sort of surprised the sales are holding where they are knowing the changes that are coming.

Incendiary

GM:

http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayS...=2&docid=23788

spwolf

no, it is not averaged by number of car models, but on total number of cars and their sales. On average, how long an car stays on the lot before it gets sold.

As rockwille said in another thread, GS430 is now special order only in eastern region. That means regional does not order them for their stock at all, only dealers do.

it is all about demand and supply. It is better to have less vehicles and give less incentives, that huge supply like Infiniti does.

And since Lexus sales are actually up overall, they dont care :-). I feel Lexus is reluctant to sell too many cars, as 300,000 mark was believed to be top for an luxury brand - in a sense that it would loose its luxury prestige if you sell too many. Lexus is already on track to beat their awesome last years results.

chiawei

I have said this before and will say it again. The 5 series is in a league of its own.

GS is a better car. But its simply can't match the 5 on many front. Consumer are not as stupid as you think. People who is going to spend $50k plus for a car is looking for more than a reliable vehicle and prestige. The 5 series is dominating market simply because if offers more than GS and E.

Look at the M sales should also provide more clue into what customer really wants. M is a good car and in some way its a 5 series twin. Infiniti is on the right track more than lexus is right now.

Lexus needs to build a car that excite the driver not putting them to sleep. The new GS based on my experience actually is decent (better than the E in road feel and handling). But it simply not as agile and fun when you compare to the M and the 5.

Mercedes is paying heavily for screwing up the W211. E class used to dominate this class, with good quality and fun to drive. DCX took both of them away hence sales tanked.

GS on the other hand has the qulity but still boring to drive is also suffering. I have said it many time on this forum, unless lexus begin to offer more fun car to drive, it will never crack BMW's grip. BMW has been increasing its share at alarming rate.

RON430

[QUOTE=spwolf]no, it is not averaged by number of car models, but on total number of cars and their sales. On average, how long an car stays on the lot before it gets sold.
QUOTE]

Your perception of not averaging is quite interesting. I do not know exactly what "not averaged by number of car models means". I assume you are saying that they do not take individual car models, calculate their turnover rate, and average them together but just take total sales as the number, which we are in agreement on as this is is what I would believe they do. However, you obviously have found a reference to support how the number is presented by Lexus and if you could post the link, I would appreciate it.

I am not quite sure why you thought anyone was saying that the number was calculated on individual car models other than for the car manufacturer to be misleading because boy you could probably really play with that one. I am just about positive that they take the total number of vehicles sold and look at the total number of vehicles available to do the inventory number. Now, unless they have balanced inventory, the number may or may not mean anything. I suspect they do not have balanced inventories and that the number is not very useful for the purpose of our discussion. If Lexus, or anyone, would report inventory turnover rate by model, it would be more useful. The definitely have those numbers but obviously decide not to share them other than to hype sales of hot models. So hot models skew the results to shorter turnover while dogs skew the results the other way.

I think the point is that if GS430s are in short supply it is, once again, because Lexus is probably not interested in making too many (if any) of those becuase a)demand is not really there for the current engined models and obviously b) the upengined models are in the countdown to introduction. I would guess there are a lot more current engine ESs still rolling in than GSs. If RX400h is in short supply it is because they don't hang around long enough (if at all) to get counted. I am not sure we can play any more mental masturbation with the numbers we have available. Some people may be of the opinion that the new GS is just not selling but is stil in full production. I believe that Lexus either already has or is about to shift production over to the new engined cars. I have not seen very many production introductions of volume models, like the GS350 that, when the official release date arrives, are not already in dealers hands in some quantity. This is the reason why Lexus, or any car manufacturer, does not want to release much information too far ahead on the timing of new models or significant upgrades. It just hurts current models too much. To the extent this talks about the current month sales numbers it may be relevant, but this is probably hijacking this thread to go on much. I just think that Lexus sales figures for LS and GS, and probably ES, are already feeling the slowdown before the upengined vehicles arrive. But, once again, I think the sales numbers for those models are not going to improve much, if at all, before the new powertrains arrive.

RON430

Personally I totally agree with you on the 5 series. I actually haven't known too many people that are in the market for a 5 that wind up with anything else. Now, if they get fed up with bimmer or don't want (or aren't able) to pay bimmer prices, or don't like the ride of the current bimmer, or don't like the seats, or don't want to be put in the class as typical bimmer owners, or whatever, that is different. But if you want a 5, nothing else stacks up very well.

But I think the perception is that people shopping for roughly this size luxury car will look at (not meant to be in order or definitive) Infiniti M, GS, A6, S Type Jag, E class merc, and 5 series. Maybe you want to throw in the STS or something like that but I think that group is what is widely perceived as appealing to the same customer. But within that class, much of what the 5 delivers, and obviously this also must include elitism because there are many bimmer customers who wouldn't know a fine performing car if it waddled up and licked them in the face but they believe they know the admiration that swells up in the non bimmer supporting public when we see them role up with a roundel. And a payment book. And a standing service appointment.

The GS is really a very different experience. I no longer admire bimmer ride/handling like I once did and now just find them different than Lexus. But the overall impact on the driver is different in the bimmer than the GS. Owning a GS tends to be the best part and this cannot be said of bimmer in too many instances. I can easily admit preferences of one vehicle over another in various areas if they are both in the right direction. But there are too many things in bimmers that I find annoying to want to shop them at the present time. But the 5 really distanced itself from the competition with the 5 liter motor and no one has really made the ground up yet.

Would a 5 series buyer be swayed by a Lexus hybrid? I really doubt it. But would a not totally convinced bimmer shopper go for a GS460 with 380hp at maybe 5 or 10K less than a 550? Probably. But just look at the sales numbers to see not only how well received the 5 is but how vital it is to bimmer. At the current time, bimmer has to feel pretty good. The GS fell farther behind by being introduced without the new motors and those sales are gone. The M isn't going to improve anytime soon. Audi and Jag are not mounting serious efforts. New E class is stil a ways off and will be more expensive and even worse reliability when it does get here. So the only dark cloud in Bavaria is the engine upgrade for the GS and I suspect they can take that in their stride. Now, their bigger problem is time. As we age, our priorities in cars change. Bimmer is oriented to get customers in the three, move them to the five, and eventually put them in the 7 and that progression is probably not happening at the rate to be to their liking. In that respect, the LS is a much bigger threat to bimmer than the GS. That's the way it was at the start of Lexus and probably hasn't changed that much today. And when the new LS arrives, we go back to that time in a big way.

LexFather

Yes, the 5 is in a league of its own. From a sedan standpoint, they offer a value 525, then 530, then 550. Take out the 525, which no one competes with, and well, 5 sales tell a different story.

Am I mad BMW sells the 525? No! Clearly, if they sell 1,500 of them a month, they are SMART to offer it, no matter how laughable it is. At least we don't get the 165hp 520, like they sell in Europe.

So BMW offers 3 engine choices to everyone elses too (not counting M/AMG etc). Add wagons and 4wd to the mix, and well, they will always be the sales leader. Only Mercedes comes close, offering wagons as well.

As for the GS putting people to sleep, that is a ridiculous claim. The car has performed well in every comparison test. Yes, it may not be the sporties, but this is LEXUS INTERPRETATION of a sports sedan.

As for the Nissan Fuga, well, one of the main reasons it sells, its hella cheaper than the others. Hell, its 5k less than a Lexus, which means 8--10k less than the Germans to start with. And its a good package, so VALUE buyers will pick it up. DO you honestly think people race this car like the mags do (or the BMW)?

Hell compared to any other forum, we have more 3GS modded in one year, than most other makes. Which means, Lexus has hit a target market.

Imagine if Lexus sold
GS 300
GS 350
GS 450h
GS 460
A GS wagon?

Sales would be on par with the 5.

And remember, Lexus has always stated, it doesn't chase sales, just sucess. If they really wanted the GS to be the sales leader, they could.

chiawei

You are so wrong on this.

One BMW did not slow down the production during the 545/550 switch nor did it slow down the 530/525i production during the engine change.

A lot of BMW comes to US already pre-sold.

For example, BMW of Fremont, currently only has a total of 6 5-series in stock. A whopping 6 cars. 2x 530xi, 3x 530i, and one 550i. No 525i is in stock.

Lexus of fremont, i believe has about 20 GS instock.

The 5 series is outselling the GS by more than 2:1. Yet, if you check dealer stock, you would be amazed that there really isn't alot of inventory at dealer lot.

Lexus is not slowing production a full 8 monthsahead of transition. The feb number is clear indication that GS sales is slowing down.

BMW and lexus has very different approach to their dealership model. Lexus is pretty much build to stock with minimal custom order. While BMW is more of build to custom order and carry very low inventory at dealer lot.

The only exception to BMW custom order model is the 3 series, which has quiet a bit of inventory.

BMW rarely have incentive to move cars unless its phasing out a totally old design, even then, the inventory is still quiet low since BMW planned it that way.

chiawei

Not true. 525i and 525Xi are not big seller as you made it out to be.

Here is what BMW sold in feb.

525i- 790 sold in 2/06, 525xi 581 total- 1371
530i-902, 530xi-710, 530i touring-269 total-1881
550i-556
M5-345

So solely based number on what GS compete, 1612+556= 2168. (530i+530Xi+550i).
The 5 still outsold the GS fair and square.

Also keep in mind from pricing point of view, GS actually competes against 525i and 530i not 530i and 550i.

525i is a $50k car with options, 530i is a $55k to $60k car. While 550i is a $65k to $70k car.

From pricing point of view, BMW actually crushed GS with sales over 3500+ unit vs 2100+ unit viewed from pricing range viewpoint.

BMW is sales leader simply because people like their design better. The question that you should be asking Lexus is why people would buy a more expansive 525i instead of buying cheaper and more powerful GS300, same would apply for people that bought 530i/Xi that overlooked GS430.

You are too biased and simply did not look at actual numbers. No one is in the market to just sell enough cars to be sucessful. If that is the case, toyota wouldn't be expanding like crazy. It is already a sucessful story. The simple fact is lexus simply is not selling the GS as well as they would have liked.

I stated this earlier in other thread, GS and IS sales will start to fall and will have no impact on BMW what so ever. So far, my statement has been proven to be true.

As far as M goes. Inifniti has always been cheaper than lexus and german. But it never performed well until now. So what has changed that M is now a player? Simple, the product itself is better. People like the design. Infiniti always had value over both lexus and germans. But it did not start to do well until G and M came out.

This is the simple truth. You can spin it all you want. But reality is far different than you made it out to be.

M is a much better designed car than GS and the market place is starting to see it that way as well.

chiawei

The 5 series are due for another engine upgrade soon. New L6 and V8 are around the corner. So i really don't think GS's new engine range will have a big impact.

I think DCX has a much bigger problem at its hand than either lexus or infiniti. DCX already debuted the new V6 and sales is still slumping. The new V8 is about 3 months away, and i still don't see it pick up.

BMW does have problem moving people from the 5 to the 7. Because 7 series itself is a big contracdiction to what BMW is. Even though the 7 is a good handling car, but its too heavy and big and on top of that not really that luxurious nor reliable. BMW's customer profile (those who moved from from 3 to 5) really buys into the ultimate driving machine philosophy. The 7 is against that.

I am in my mid 30. I am already moved on to the M5. Will i ever consider a 7, never. It simply is not what I am looking for. In that sense, BMW really doesn't have a strong customer base on the 7. That's why i agree with you that LS and the new S are more of threat to BMW than anything else.

May be by the time i hit 50 or 60, i will consider a soft mobile. But I am quiet happy with BMW. Yes, its not as reliable, nor as luxurious, and the dealership at time is a pain in the rear to deal with. But I really don't care, the car itself is a pleasure to drive and own. That is more important to me. I don't commute in my M5 or E55. For that i have the M45. I would probably bought GS had M45 not been on the market.

M45 although not as agile to the 5 series, it is probably the most reliable japanese sport sedan that came close. This is what GS should have been had Lexus been true to their word on benchmarking the GS with the 5.

LexFather

Only a wasteful and clueless company would produce the same amount of product the month before a new product is rolled out. As a matter of fact, its almost impossible in most industries. Not only do suppliers have to change, but you have to educate your employees etc.

So I am a little surprised at you, as this is a business theory, not a Lexus/BMW thing. I am not surprised you got defensive, trying to save BMW from any error, God forbid. Well, I wasn't even saying this is an ERROR! I was saying, both BMW and Lexus slowed down prodcution as a new model is being introduced. Yes, there are other external factors and yes, the companies methods are not identical, but the goal and end result is the same.

SLOW DOWN PRODUCTION OF THE OUTGOING MODEL AND THE INCOMING MODEL IS ON THE WAY!
You need some facts in your life, so lets look at the sales last year when the 545 became the 550.

June 2005
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...ighlight=sales
808 545s sold

July 2005
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...ighlight=sales
657 sold

August 2005
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...ighlight=sales
544 sold

September 2005
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...ighlight=sales
291 545s sold
11 550s sold

October 2005
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...ighlight=sales
111 545s sold
320 550s sold

November 2005
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...ighlight=sales
61 545s sold
493 550s sold

December 2005
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...ighlight=sales
45 545s sold
602 550s sold

January 2006
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...ighlight=sales
You see the trend bub?

So lets' recap.

I have just proven to you, that BMW did indeed slow down 545 production as their 545 sales dropped OVER THE SUMMER, the BEST SALES PERIOD OF THE YEAR, as they ramped up for the 550.

Its BUSINESS. Any BUSINESS with BRAINS would follow this method.

So stop getting all defensive, about something that doesn't even need defending!

LexFather

First off, I am not even knocking BMW being the sales leader. I give them kudos and respect, because they are selling 4-5k in this class and they are priced higher than ALL the competiton, including Mercedes.

So CLEARLY, they are doing something right.

My point is, the GS has no where NEAR the variations the 5 has, thus it will NEVER be a real sales threat.
My other point is, Lexus isn't INTENDING for the GS to be #1 in sales in the segment. They want the GS to be competative and meet sales targets. IT DID its first year, 34k, even as teh GS is priced 5k highr than the outgoing model.

As for people buying BMWs b/c they like the design, well I disagree Its a mix of things, but more than anything, PRESTIGE. I can say "I have a BMW".

I mean, it isn't that much sport, all the guys on this forum with a 5 got an automatic, not the manual.

You, as usual, come in here, looking to pick and debate anything that could be interpreted as anti-BMW. I know, I used to do the same crap on other forums, but it makes no sense.

LexFather

Both companies hit their sales targets. Nissan wanted the M35/45 to hit 24k a year, it did. LExus wanted 34k out the GS the first year, it did.

Just b/c the magazines don't think the GS drives like a 911, doesn't mean its a failure. Just look at the sticky with all the modded GSs. In comparison, the only modded M is one guy with some Altezzas. So while the mags may like the Nissan better, people like the GS better.

We both can conclude, the new M35/45 is great competiton in this segment.

LexFather

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=203849

My goodness, no one here hates BMW. Sigh...............

chiawei

Wrong and wrong again.

Please look at overall trend from a year ago.

BMW actually had special lease deal starting 3/05 when 550i was formally orderable on the BMW ordering system. BMW actually blew out 545i with excellent leasing deal hence after 550i was announced, 545i sales actually went up since 4/05.

But during the normal year in 2004, BMW moved on average about 500 V8 models (range from 291 to 555).

550i went into production two weeks ahead of schedule on 8/22/05. Due to only 4 week transit time to the east cost, some 550i was deliver to customer in 9/05, while 545i that made before was still being delivered to customer on the west coast.

I know for sure that US west coast 550i did get delivered to customer until mid october (how do i know, because my M5 was on the 1st boat that carried the 2006 550i/M5 from dingoling on orion diamond).

BMW shut down the factory during summer for a month for summer vacation. In reality, BMW actually boosted production on 545i from march 05 to july 05 so it can get rid of all the 545i powertrain in their factory.

Therefore you are totally wrong on this subject matter.

Again, your are interpreting the number without knowing what exactly was going on.

Business theory??????

What theory?????

BMW and lexus operate under different model. BMW rarely carries finished good inventory here in US. Simple as that. And BMW increased production on the 545i/550i transistion not the other way around.


SIMPLE AS THAT. I am not defending anything except point out that as always, you are wrong on this subject matter. This has nothing to do with brain. Except you don't realize that BMW and lexus operates much differently from each other. PERIOD!