bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

When the RX400h came out, Lexus touted the performance and fuel economy over the RX330.

But now the RX350 is out, the performance advantage for the RX400h has vanished.

So now the RX400h has fuel economy (although real world numbers apparently don't seem to back up the EPA numbers at all), and cleaner emissions to tout.

But at what price?

I took the following specs from Lexus' own web site.

So there's about an $8000 base price delta on either FWD or AWD models. That buys a lot of gas. There's also about a 300lb weight difference.

Are the hybrid models then compelling beyond those big on thinking they're saving the planet by buying one?

TheRupp

I thought about this as soon as I saw the HP figures on the 350. I'm thinking that they'll make an RX430h using the 3.5 instead of the 3.3... power maybe in the 290-300 range?

The 3.5's a more fuel efficient engine than the 3.3 was (at least from what I've witnessed) so it's probably a better idea for the hybrid market, especially if they want to sell performance as one of the hybrid's premiums over the gas other than just fuel economy.

LexFather

I love Lexus and all but they got me seriously scratching my head on this one. It makes NO sense right now. 400h sales will plummet if it doesn't become a 450h soon.

It makes pretty much no sense outside the tax credit and the feel good vibe.

LexFather

Then I thought about it and if the GS 450h makes 339 hp, I don't think Lexus wants that much power in the RX. Maybe it is not built for that power, so they will wait.

That is past the FX45 and close to Cayenne S and X5 4.8 power.

That would be A LOT of power in the RX and not sure the chassis is best for that.

Maybe about 275hp tops is good for that SUV.

TRDFantasy

Regardless, the RX400h still gets better emissions, and better fuel economy on average. Straight line performance is likely to be fairly equal, but do not forget the RX400h also has VDIM, and due to the hybrid system placement, it actually has flatter cornering thanks a better front/rear weight distribution compared to the RX350.

But I do see the problem price-wise. Thankfully, the RX is getting redesigned soon, and a new RX will almost certainly be out for MY 2009. Several people supposedly have already seen pics of the new L-Finessed RX. With the RX getting a redesign, you can bet the hybrid version will be redesigned, likely to use the 3.5L V6, as well as Toyota's 3rd gen hybrid system.

Keep in mind, Toyota's engineering resources are currently stretched to the max. Even if they wanted to, they could not build or update the current RX hybrid any faster than they are already planning.

TheRupp

I agree that ~340 is too much, but I do think that they could max out about 300

JZA80MHU38

Interesting point. On Lexus's official homepage they stated that the RX350 is 56.8/43.2 F/R, and from Car and Driver the RX400h is 55.9/44.1. A slight difference. I haven't driven the RX350 yet, but the RX400h, even in AWD model, the torque steer is quite significant when you floor it. And I've driven it on ice... the understeer sure makes me feel like there should be more than just 55.9% in the front.

I don't know if the better front/rear weight distribution will help the 400h to corner "flatter", but for sure the 400h is heavier and with the VDIM, that may hinder to get the max cornering capability out of the SUV. I may feel more comfortable driving the RX350 AWD to attack corners as the differetial-based AWD system is easier to control and get feed back from compare to the motor-based AWD system in the 400h.

But, heck, it's a luxury SUV. Shouldn't take it to attack corner anyway

rominl

iTrader: (4)

umm that's very interesting points you brought there, paul. i never thought about that. definitely worth seeing how lexus is going to play this out, and how the public is going to buy into it.

maybe it's a good indication of what it's like down the road on the gs350, gs450h, and the gs460 (if there is one)

Skulinex

It's all gooooood, they will make a hybrid RX with the 3.5L engine, just wait a little bit, it's all about the 'always coming out with something new' deal.... I'd say 6 months or less, they will announce it, a little drop on sales <if any> won't hurt them during that period

RON430

Just curious for yet another hybrid thread, but are those econ numbers the EPA numbers? If so, you might be interested in this little bit from the latest Motor Trend that has their hybrid comparo:

"Our Camry's mileage also will eventually be correlating a lot better with the EPA's projections. According to the agency's "Revisions to Improve Calculation of Fuel Economy Estimates," future city and highway numbers are going to be computed from a complex new formula that melds the results of the two present city and highway mileage cycles with those of three current emissions tests. Moreover, each of these will be tweaked to better reflect driving realities (taking into account wind, grade, higher speeds, and temperature). Most vehicles (including hybrids) will see five to 15 percent lower highway mileage. Hybrids will be taking it on the chin in the city numbers though, dropping 20 to 30 percent."

When posts are made of the reports from some sources, like New York Times and Consumers Reports, on the questionable mileage of the RX 400h relative to the RX330, the hybrid supporters just say the numbers are invalid. But if you look at what is written, the biggest savings may be in the lighter and/or more purpose built hybrids and not in the conversions of heavier vehicles. And when you look at the costs of ownership, the more expensive the hybrid, the more premium you pay in owning and operating relative to the non hybrid.

It is kind of interesting that the RX330 was a bit behind in performance although about the same as what is being talked about for the difference in 0 -60 for the GS430 and the GS450h. But while the RX400h is roughly $8,000 more than the RX330, the GS450h is supposed to be only $3,000 more than the GS430.

spwolf

Well, few things to note.

- RX350 base is not equipped same as RX400h base.

Unless someone thinks they can get cloth RX350? :-).

So with premium plus package with options (heaters, auto wipers) pricing is:
- RX350 FWD - $42,373.00
- RX400h FWD - $46,020.00

So hybrid premium is "only" $3,700 USD.
Other thing in RX400h is smoother transmission, faster than V8 passing acceleration, VDIM, better mpg, better AC system, a lot quieter drive overall. And of course, novelty of it all.

RX400h in drive should still be significantly faster than RX350, due to torque coming from electric engines. So far it has been proved faster in gear that its V8 competitors, so I dont see why it wont be faster than V6.

jrock65

Hybrids usually sell a lot closer to MSRP than their non-hybrid counterparts. So the gap is usually greater than a MSRP vs. MSRP comparison.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Good points. Only disagreement is the RX400h being significantly faster than RX350 because don't forget it's carting around 320lbs more machinery.

Not sure which V8 competitors it was compared to, perhaps not a Cayenne.