PhilipMSPT

iTrader: (5)

I think the reliability factor went down the tube, not with the engine, but with that damn iDrive!!!

newr

You speak the truth..

chiawei

Someone needs to understand how to read.

"The problem occurs on M52TU engine cars, 3 & 5 series 6-cylinder 1999-2000. It presents when the car is cold, ~ < 55° Fahrenheit, " Taken from the post above.

As i have stated earlier. BMW had issues with Vanos in us, but that issues was resolved 6 years ago as I have stated earlier.

All the problems on the roadfly, was dealing with 1st and 2nd year of single vanos E39/E46, i believe the same issue also occured on the V8 powered car at same model year.

Vanos has been replaced by valvetronics and are different in their design and application.

So your information is wrong and outdated.

You need to take a reading class. The vanos issue on both their car was fixed 6 years ago. The poster errorneously added M54 engine into mix as BMW upgraded vanos in 01 when M54 was introduced. Which is totally wrong and pointless.

If you want to talk about none responsive. It's not like Toyota/Lexus have been great either. Toyota had problem with sludge issues on the v6 in late 90's to early 00. Did toyota ever issue a recall on that problem? NO.

When comes down to it. Both of their cars are way out of warranty. Simple as that.

If you want to be critical of BMW, then do the same with toyota. Why not stand up and challenge troyota/lexus to recall all of their V6 with engine sludge issue.





Again, if you bothered to learn to read, the issue again has been resolved. This was not related to I-drive which was resolved in late 04. Again i fail to see where my comment was wrong?

The issue had to do with DME software when BMW phased in new engine in march 05. And issues were fixed. I don't expect BＭW to get things right the 1st time especially with new valvetronics engine. Consider that this issue were closed within 6 months, it is no factor either.

The problem i have with your post is your simple lack of correct information.

1. That 06 525i does not use vanos, its actually the new N52 engine with valvetronic (3.0L). Hence your comment on vanos does not apply here. Then again, I wouldn't expect you to go ahead and do any kind of research.

Also, you are making a generalization based on one car. So that means the N52 has big inherent issue?

I just did a quick search and document quiet a bit of issue on this board with new IS and GS. So based on your reasoning, Lexus quality must be in pits as well.

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=198954
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=201957


Again, using your logic. Lexus quality must be down the toilet. OMG. We have excessive gas in the oil. hmmmmm....................

Look at your own post. I have already provide all the information needed on this.

YOU HAVE NOTHING AT ALL EXCEPT LACK OF RESEARCH.

BTW, i am waiting to see how double vanos on the M52 was applied on the valvetronci N52.


Like i said, all of your information has been proven wrong.

1. I-drive issues was resolved in late 04.
2. The issue you mentioned has to do with DME programming when BMW introduced N52 in march 05, and resolved in 9/05.
3. Vanos issue based on your own so called evidence, came back and slap you in the face. Since M52 TU Vanos design is quiet different from M54 double vanos introduced in 01. Which i already told you that BMW had issues with Vanos 6 years ago. (year 2000). Damn, i just hit on that directly.

The single vanos debuted in US in 1999 and lasted until 2000 models years. The double vanos came on as 01 in US with introduction of M54, when M52 went through another stroke that see its displacement went to 3.0L. The S54 which is also anther L6 was stretched in mid 90 to 3.2L. I already gave you all history on the L6 engine. BMW can stretch both stroke and bore on the N52. It's not a difficult task.

Your credibility just went down the toiler. Sir.

Don't talk to me about BMW history until you do homework on it.

You have gotten nothing right thus far. SIR.

SteVTEC

yeah ok sure...

If the issues were "resolved" 6 years ago then could you please explain to me why people are still having problems with them TODAY in 2006? Clearly they were NOT resolved, and people with cars as new as 2003 are having the problems. That is not "SIX YEARS AGO". For all I know the newer models will develop the same problems but just aren't old enough yet.


If you had even the slightest friggin clue about what you were talking about, or how an engine works, you would know that Double VANOS is still alive and well because Valvetronic works on top of that. Here it is straight off of BMWUSA.com.

http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/5/530iSedan/features.htm

Nice try...


Oh ok, so those guys who did a complete tear down analysis and root causing of the problem who were in direct contact with BMW who said they were "impressed" with their work are wrong, and you're right. Ok. Not.


What in THE HELL are you talking about? Non-responsive? Toyota extended the warranty on all of their sludge affected engines and people got letters in the mail for it. I believe they extended the engine warranty to 7yrs/100k miles for sludge issues. Why would they recall it? there's no safety issue. And it was only on an extremely small percentage of engines, and a lot of it could probably be tracked to non-prompt maintenance.

So where are the BMW warranty extensions for VANOS and all sorts of other issues? Nada...



Yeah, all issues are resolved and closed. That explains why if you open up consumer reports and look at the electronics column of any BMW in the reliability sections you see solid strings of "much worse than average". The cars have issues new, and continue to have issues throughout their lives.

BTW, when you buy a car with a new engine from Toyota or Honda you're pretty well assured that you're going to get something solid that isn't going to blow up in your face down the road because both of these companies actually have top notch quality control unlike BMW. Remember those S54 engines with bad crank main bearings? That was cool. Most of those should have been covered under warranty though. My personal favorite is the E39 "expendable cooling system" that needs to be replaced (all of it) every 60k as "preventative" maintenance because the plastic parts just don't hold up. I understand why they do it. They use light parts to keep weight off the front end which helps them achieve their 50:50 balance, but it comes at the expense of reliability. Are their warranty extensions on the cooling system? haha my buddy has a 98 540i 6spd and he had to replace all of his and it cost him a pretty penny. he wasn't too happy.



My problem with your posts is the inability to get even a single goddamn thing right, and not being intelligent enough to even distinguish what is correct and what is complete, total, utter, BS! So the 06 525i does not use VANOS? Okay...

http://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/5/525iSedan/features.htm

Right, it doesn't use VANOS. I need to do my research better so that I can get correct information. I'm getting my information directly from BMWUSA.com. Where the hell are you getting yours from???



Please refer to JDPA and Consumer Reports data.



AND IT IS WRONG PERIOD.

Please explain to me how you can get an N52 to 3.5L with a 90 mm bore when the bore spacing is only 91 mm which would leave just a 1mm cylinder wall. Please explain this or just stop posting.

yeah, uh-huh....

Why don't you learn how an engine works and then maybe you would understand.

Double VANOS: steplessly variable valve TIMING
Valvetronic: steplessly variable valve LIFT for "throttle free load control"

The two work together. They're both there. You are wrong. Period.



Yeah ok, you just go ahead and keep thinking that. I refuse to waste another second of my time reading or replying to one of your highly idiotic posts. I mean, the information is right on BMWUSA.com. I am going to link your post to some of my buddies, we're all going to have a good laugh, and the joke is going to be all on you.

*ignore*

(you are far worse than even a lot of Honduh guys and believe me, that's pretty god damn bad. you have to be one of the biggest bmw apologist/fanboy types out there to dish out crap like this. to the person that PMed me about the E60 with RATIONAL thought, thanks. I just haven't had time to get back to you yet but will, and you know who you are )

chiawei

yes, we all know that you are a BMW master tech.

Get real.

Again, you are stating that you know that newer model will develop the same problem. It is you that know what will happen. Perhaps BMW should higher you as engineer.

You said there was issue with 03?

Here is the post from the original poster on the same subject.
"like why do 01+ i6 cars not exhibit vanos cold engine symptoms?"
http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e39/7494640-1.html

hmm............

Again, how many time do you want to keep on embarrassing yourself.



Double vanos is alive because it is variable valve timing, but not in the same form as the issues from the M54. Valvetronic builds on top of that and its part of same system. The design has changed since the M52 and M54 era. Hence should never be confused as such.

You on the other hand, insist that the design are identical, in which its not. You are basing your conclusion on your own imagination, when the original poster already stated that they can't reproduce the issue on the +01 cars.

Yes, compare to someone that only read the information they want to here instead of all post. I think i was able to comprehend more than you did.

Again, read the original poster's comment on 2/22/06, attached above. THANK YOU!!!


Responsive?

hmm, do you want to do a search on the oil sludge problem.

Toyota fought with owners to death on this issue and only reluctantly issued extension without admitting any error. In addition, that extention only applied to 1997 to 2001 vehicle. In which, we all know that the issue also appeared on earlier V6 and we have cases on car as late as 03 with sludge issue.

BTW, the extension was for 8 years unlimited miles. BUT- read the damn fine print. You have to produce all oil change record since day one you own the car.

hmm................ very responsive. Toyota has never accepted fault on this and played this as a favor to consumer.

This is what really happened. Again, pertty much identical to what BMW has on hand with this two 99-00 L6 single vanos cars.


Again, it will take time for BMW to respond on this. And like toyota, unless this thing gets out of hand, BMW will probably do nothing.

Toyota is not a saint as you made it out to be. Toyota was pressured into extension not as good will. These two guys are at beginning of their fight that thousands of toyota owners went through with the sludge case.

The problem with your comment is you simply lacked the knowledge behind the fight that toyota/lexus owners went through to get that warranty extension.

WHERE IS TOYOTA'S RECALL??? GUESS WHAT IT DOES NOT EXIST. Toyota knows that with close to 2 million engines out there, if it issues a recall the cost would be extremely high. Hence it alongs with 4 other company that had similar issue are fighting this to death and will not issue a recall.

So why are you blaming BMW for resisting, when Toyota just wen through the same with their V6?

Again biased post.

Consumer report based data on the vehicle's past performance. E60 had a lot of i-drive issues in 2004. Hence it is being dragged down as result of such performance.

But it is not reflective of current situation as nearly all issues with i-drive has been resolved. So your point still provide no counter point to my comment earlier.

Again, you as a consumer have to know what you want. There are going to be trade off when you want performance over long term reliability. Because the issue you mentioned above is not a quality issue but a design decision made by the company to please its customers.

E39 has a lot of parts that were designed for performance in mind over logevity. The other big example is the aluminum control arm that is prone to cracking after long period of use. Does this mean BMW quality sucks? No, its a design deicsion that BMW made. So i don't have a problem with that because going in, i already know that this is going to be a problem. Just as I already know that the S85 in my M5 will not last past 100k. You as a consumer has to do your homework and understand what you are getting into.

As far as S54 bearing issue, that was isolated to production issues and has been resolved. Then again, i wouldn't expect you to go dig through that as well. So far the M3 engine has been quiet durable. BTW, the S54 is not entirely new either. The basic block has been around since 1998 in europe developing over 315HP and quiet durable. I also have seen a turbo charged version of that 1998 3.2L developing over 600HP that has ran fine.

Again, PLEASE LEARN TO READ. Vanos is the term that BMW used to stepless variable timing, with introduction of valvetronic. The double vanos and single vanos design on the M52 and M54 no longer applies as they are different in design.

You kept on lumping then together when they are different system. How many time do i need to point out even the original poster realized as such as well.

Like i said, i am not apologizing for BMW.

I am simply point out your mistake one by one.

1. PLEASE GET BACK TO ME ON THE I-DRIVE SOFTWARE ISSUE

2. SHOW ME HOW YOU CAN CONCLUDE THAT THE ISSUES EXIST ON THE SINGLE VANOS INTRODUCED ON THE M52 EQUATES ALL DOUBLE VANOS M54/S54, AND VALVETRONIC ON N52 WILL MEAN THEY WILL ALL FAIL. ESPECIALLY AFTER THE ORIGINAL POSTER UPDATED STATING THAT THE PROBLEM CAN'T BE REPRODUCED ON THE M54.

3.SHOW ME THAT TOYOTA WILLINGLY OFFERED EXTENSION WITHOUT A FIGHT. SHOW ME HOW TOYOTA DID NOT IGNORE PROBLEM WITH V6 ON 2002 AND LATER CARS AND PRIOR TO 97.

4. PLEASE SHOW ME ON ONE CASE OF ENGINE PROBLEM WITH AN 06 525I EQUATES TO VANOS ISSUE AND BMW QUALITY IS DOWN THE TOILET WHILE THE ISSUES I POSTED ON THE IS AND GS CAN'T BE USED TO MEAN THAT LEXUS QUALITY IS IN TOILET AS WELL.

5. PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE WAS I WRONG ON CLEARLY STATING THAT SINGLE VANOS ISSUE EXISTED 6 YEARS AGO AND ISSUES HAVE BEEN FIXED.

BMW does have its share of quality issue and will fight you to death on it. But don't portray toyota to be a saint and no quality issues as well.

The fact of matter is that each company has its own share of issues and depends on the amount of liability will either fight you to death or suck it up. It's all about money.

Toyota is the same way in dealing with its customers. Toyota has other issues on hand that is been fighting, and in fact i am still fighting them on the issue they made on the poor alignment on the sienna which resuled in uneven tire wear on all 4 tires.

If you look closely at amount of TSB that lexus/toyota has within last 3-5 years, you will see that the trend is pointing in increase of problems and TSB being issued.

Toyota is nowhere close to where it was 15 years ago, when its quality is beyond a doubt the best in the industry. With growth, toyota has slipped. Even though it is still best in the industry, it's not as good as 15 years ago. Design has improved, but quality IMHO has declined.

I went through 6 toyota/lexus within last 13 years. I can honest say, that quality has been on the decline.

My 93 camry V6 was bullet proof and did not have any mechanical issue that warranted any repair (other than replacing the transmission after 150k miles and i was tortoure it to die). The 97 camry that my mother in law has been durable at 100k miles. Starting with 98 sienna we started to see problem (mis-agligned dash, power door failed, failed stereo), 01 IS300 (did not own the car enough to have good feel of quality), 01 RX300 (rattle after 2 years of ownership, forgetful and none working memory seat), and 04 sienna (un-even tire wear due to wrong toe setting by toyota, rattling from the B-pillar due to poor quality of the locks, drawing of current from bad amp, leaking rear struts, poor design of dvd screen causing it not to lock in place for good viewing, poor programming of throttle by wire....).

Yes, all the problems were minor. I was lucky as i never experienced the sludge issue. I still believe toyota has good quality not again not as great as people make it out to be.

BMW does have its share of issues. But then again, on this board, this is blown way out of proportion.

JZA80MHU38

As a reader, maybe we really need to take chiawei's advice and learn how to read, as his post sure is very difficult to understand. So difficult to be convinced and understood that, I don't even want to use the word "contradictive" to describe his posts.

VVT-i

Wow, I've learn more about Vanos system in this thread than at E46.com
Anyway, the guy just want something or some car to display his new job that will make him more money. He just wanted either the BMW or Lexus IS or SC430 to display his status. I don't think he concerns about the Vanos valve timing at all or even heard of it, reliablity issue or any of the i-drive/ u-drive or who the F-drive the car issues. Just be polite and get back on the topic.

IMO, just buy whatever you like and the car that will give you best status as possible. If you're looking at Lexus or BMW convertible that will fit 4 people. I suggest the 2002-05 M3 convertible or perhap get a Hummer H2 or H3.