Another IS350 vs. 330i comparo (like we havent had enough)
03-19-06, 11:11 AM
#31
Originally Posted by Ichigo
Too bad this article echos the numerous reviews that preceeded it. I wonder what the CL community would say if someone actually wrote an article saying that the IS350 trumped the 3series across the board? Would that writer be a genius for finally writing the "correct" article, or would the writer be considered crazy because the article didnt mirror all of the rest...?
03-19-06, 01:30 PM
#33
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This whole comparison for me at least comes down to this one single point.
I have no idea where all of the space in the IS went, but I couldn't believe how much more usable the 3-series interior was vs the IS. Despite having a longer overall car, and switching to a shorter and more space-efficient V-6 vs I-6 engine, the IS interior is just plain cramped and the backseats nearly unusable. Where did all the space go??
At 6'3", 240 lbs, and having a fairly wide frame, I had plenty of room in the 3-series. I could even "sit behind myself" in a pinch, and would have plenty of room if either of the people in front were shorter. After fitting myself into the driver's seat of the IS at an autoshow, I looked into the back to see what was left and just laughed. I didn't even bother trying to get back there. I think a Subaru WRX has more room.
So as much as I like Toyota/Lexus products, and appreciate the huge power and efficiency of the 2GR-FSE and the quality and reliability, I would take the 3-series anyday. Boo to Lexus on their inefficient use of space.
Ditto on the GS vs 5-series, although I could fit into the back of the GS. It had as much room as the 3-series, but this is the mid-sized car?
As a footnote, I see the space efficiency problem of the Lexus as a much bigger problem than the intrusiveness of the VDIM. The reviewers always love to point that out because it prevents them from doing burnouts, drifts, and other fun stuff, but who really cares? The lack of space is something that would affect everybody who needs to carry more than 2 people. And the Europeans tend to like to fit a lot of people into relatively smallish cars. The Europeans love wagons too, which BMW has for the 3-series. Is Lexus making an IS wagon again? I can't see the new IS seriously affecting 3-series sales as it stands now. It might as well be a coupe with how little room it has in the back.
I had expected the Lexus to trounce the snug BMW in terms of interior space but, surprisingly, the IS' interior dimensions are smaller than the BMW's in most respects despite it being a longer car overall. It does have a bigger trunk, but that's little consolation to the cramped rear passengers, now is it?
At 6'3", 240 lbs, and having a fairly wide frame, I had plenty of room in the 3-series. I could even "sit behind myself" in a pinch, and would have plenty of room if either of the people in front were shorter. After fitting myself into the driver's seat of the IS at an autoshow, I looked into the back to see what was left and just laughed. I didn't even bother trying to get back there. I think a Subaru WRX has more room.
So as much as I like Toyota/Lexus products, and appreciate the huge power and efficiency of the 2GR-FSE and the quality and reliability, I would take the 3-series anyday. Boo to Lexus on their inefficient use of space.
Ditto on the GS vs 5-series, although I could fit into the back of the GS. It had as much room as the 3-series, but this is the mid-sized car?As a footnote, I see the space efficiency problem of the Lexus as a much bigger problem than the intrusiveness of the VDIM. The reviewers always love to point that out because it prevents them from doing burnouts, drifts, and other fun stuff, but who really cares? The lack of space is something that would affect everybody who needs to carry more than 2 people. And the Europeans tend to like to fit a lot of people into relatively smallish cars. The Europeans love wagons too, which BMW has for the 3-series. Is Lexus making an IS wagon again? I can't see the new IS seriously affecting 3-series sales as it stands now. It might as well be a coupe with how little room it has in the back.
03-19-06, 09:41 PM
#34
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Originally Posted by doug_999
Ron, what I don't understand is, where does BMW get the status symbol label from? Couldn't the same thinking apply to Lexus? Mercedes? Audi?
A friend of my wife’s just bought a car - she looked at an A4, TL, IS250 AWD and 325ix. When she decided on the BMW, I asked her (cause Och and I have discussed this in the past), what made her go with the BMW? Was it the name? She pointed out that it was just more fun than the others and she really didn't see a difference between them as far as social status.
Therefore, I really believe that in the 80s, BMWs did hold some sort of magical cachet, but that is gone today and a Lexus gets just as many "you drive a what?" as BMW and Mercedes do today.
PS - she actually ended up in an IS250 after I asked her to go re-test drive it. Long story.
PPS - SPWolf, I hate to tell you, but Toyotas and Lexuses are often referred to as appliances. I could get into the reasons, but I think we all know them.
A friend of my wife’s just bought a car - she looked at an A4, TL, IS250 AWD and 325ix. When she decided on the BMW, I asked her (cause Och and I have discussed this in the past), what made her go with the BMW? Was it the name? She pointed out that it was just more fun than the others and she really didn't see a difference between them as far as social status.
Therefore, I really believe that in the 80s, BMWs did hold some sort of magical cachet, but that is gone today and a Lexus gets just as many "you drive a what?" as BMW and Mercedes do today.
PS - she actually ended up in an IS250 after I asked her to go re-test drive it. Long story.
PPS - SPWolf, I hate to tell you, but Toyotas and Lexuses are often referred to as appliances. I could get into the reasons, but I think we all know them.
03-20-06, 12:53 AM
#35
The majority of auto journalists out there stating that the 330 is better than the IS350 are simply too afraid to face the truth that Lexus has created such a fine automobile that will change their opinions forever. For too long, they considered BMWs to be the supreme creation for automotive performance. That may still be true, but it has gotten out of hands. Now they are unwilling to admit the greatness of the IS350, and can't bring a solid reason why the 330 is a better car, other than that it's FUNNER.
When journalists toss EVERYTHING aside, from acceleration and luxury to quality and looks, and chooses a car that's simply funner to drive, that's taking ignorance to the next level. Wonderful, everyone just go buy 330s because they can swerve in and out of traffic with style.
When journalists toss EVERYTHING aside, from acceleration and luxury to quality and looks, and chooses a car that's simply funner to drive, that's taking ignorance to the next level. Wonderful, everyone just go buy 330s because they can swerve in and out of traffic with style.
03-20-06, 02:56 PM
#37
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Originally Posted by GlobeCLK
The majority of auto journalists out there stating that the 330 is better than the IS350 are simply too afraid to face the truth that Lexus has created such a fine automobile that will change their opinions forever. For too long, they considered BMWs to be the supreme creation for automotive performance. That may still be true, but it has gotten out of hands. Now they are unwilling to admit the greatness of the IS350, and can't bring a solid reason why the 330 is a better car, other than that it's FUNNER.
When journalists toss EVERYTHING aside, from acceleration and luxury to quality and looks, and chooses a car that's simply funner to drive, that's taking ignorance to the next level. Wonderful, everyone just go buy 330s because they can swerve in and out of traffic with style.
When journalists toss EVERYTHING aside, from acceleration and luxury to quality and looks, and chooses a car that's simply funner to drive, that's taking ignorance to the next level. Wonderful, everyone just go buy 330s because they can swerve in and out of traffic with style.
- makes much more efficient use of space
- is available in sedan, coupe, and wagon form
- actually has usable backseats
- has AWD available in all current powertrains
- far more tranny options (auto, manual, or SMG)
- can even get an AWD manual!
- base 325i engine blows the IS250 out of the water (3.0 > 2.5)
- easily defeatable electronic nannys
- better styling (subjective, but I just don't care for the IS
- better handling and more balanced, more confidence inspiring
The extra power bragging rights in the IS will be short-lived because the "335" with the twin-turbo I-6 will probably be here soon with tons of modding potential to make it even faster. I suspect that after the GS350/460 are out, Lexus will drop the base IS250 in favor of the IS300. Obviously it's outclassed by BMW, Audi, and pretty much everybody. They'll leave the 2.5L for the "world" markets.
So there's plenty of reasons right there why the 3-series is better IMO and very little of that had to do with it being the more fun car to drive. It's just plain more versatile also. Lexus will of course win in overall quality and reliability, like usual.
03-20-06, 04:08 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by GlobeCLK
The majority of auto journalists out there stating that the 330 is better than the IS350 are simply too afraid to face the truth that Lexus has created such a fine automobile that will change their opinions forever. For too long, they considered BMWs to be the supreme creation for automotive performance. That may still be true, but it has gotten out of hands. Now they are unwilling to admit the greatness of the IS350, and can't bring a solid reason why the 330 is a better car, other than that it's FUNNER.
When journalists toss EVERYTHING aside, from acceleration and luxury to quality and looks, and chooses a car that's simply funner to drive, that's taking ignorance to the next level. Wonderful, everyone just go buy 330s because they can swerve in and out of traffic with style.
When journalists toss EVERYTHING aside, from acceleration and luxury to quality and looks, and chooses a car that's simply funner to drive, that's taking ignorance to the next level. Wonderful, everyone just go buy 330s because they can swerve in and out of traffic with style.
03-20-06, 09:41 PM
#39
Originally Posted by SteVTEC
I think the 3-series is better than the IS because it
- makes much more efficient use of space
- is available in sedan, coupe, and wagon form
- actually has usable backseats
- has AWD available in all current powertrains
- far more tranny options (auto, manual, or SMG)
- can even get an AWD manual!
- base 325i engine blows the IS250 out of the water (3.0 > 2.5)
- easily defeatable electronic nannys
- better styling (subjective, but I just don't care for the IS
- better handling and more balanced, more confidence inspiring
The extra power bragging rights in the IS will be short-lived because the "335" with the twin-turbo I-6 will probably be here soon with tons of modding potential to make it even faster. I suspect that after the GS350/460 are out, Lexus will drop the base IS250 in favor of the IS300. Obviously it's outclassed by BMW, Audi, and pretty much everybody. They'll leave the 2.5L for the "world" markets.
So there's plenty of reasons right there why the 3-series is better IMO and very little of that had to do with it being the more fun car to drive. It's just plain more versatile also. Lexus will of course win in overall quality and reliability, like usual.
- makes much more efficient use of space
- is available in sedan, coupe, and wagon form
- actually has usable backseats
- has AWD available in all current powertrains
- far more tranny options (auto, manual, or SMG)
- can even get an AWD manual!
- base 325i engine blows the IS250 out of the water (3.0 > 2.5)
- easily defeatable electronic nannys
- better styling (subjective, but I just don't care for the IS
- better handling and more balanced, more confidence inspiring
The extra power bragging rights in the IS will be short-lived because the "335" with the twin-turbo I-6 will probably be here soon with tons of modding potential to make it even faster. I suspect that after the GS350/460 are out, Lexus will drop the base IS250 in favor of the IS300. Obviously it's outclassed by BMW, Audi, and pretty much everybody. They'll leave the 2.5L for the "world" markets.
So there's plenty of reasons right there why the 3-series is better IMO and very little of that had to do with it being the more fun car to drive. It's just plain more versatile also. Lexus will of course win in overall quality and reliability, like usual.
- the IS was available with a wagon and the new coupe will be out soon. No one buys the wagons anyways.
- those backseats are NOT useful. I sit in the back of one ever week and it gives me more cramps than my GF's PMS.
- having AWD on all powertrains DOESN'T make it a better car
- the 325i engine has larger displacement but performance results are not that much of a difference.
- you're right, the electronic nannys are easily defeated (meaning they don't work)
- better styling (subjective, but the 3 series won ugliest car 2005 from Top Gear)
i'll give you the better handling part.
So in the end, people who pick the 3 series pick it because of performance, and that's where the 3 has an obvious edge. I got nothing against that. It does feel better or whatever when cornering. I think that when you compare cars, you can pick a BETTER PERFORMER from performance, but you can't pick a better CAR simply because of performance. When you take out the handling of the 3 series, I really don't see much left. But for the IS, the extra power bragging rights are just the beginning.
Why live in 1 dimension?
03-21-06, 12:15 AM
#40
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Before I say anything else, it is important to point out that the automotive press is a joke and worth little more than mere entertainment to the discerning consumer. I don't need to be told what is and what is not desirable about a particular car - I can judge that for myself! My preferences, tastes, and priorities are quite likely to differ from that of somebody else - so I must consider their evaluations within the proper context.
If you are unable to do the same, then you are little better than a mindless lemming.
Another curious phenomenon is the rampant fanboyism (I really cannot think of a better word within a modern context) that seems to run through most consumers today. Why are so many people so quick to rabidly defend their purchases? Objectivity is a virtue - emotional response is not!
On with the show...
Actually, at this rate, BMW will probably produce a car that drivers prefer less than the Lexus product, as opposed to Lexus producing a car that drivers prefer more than the counterpart BMW.
You need only compare the evolution of the Lexus line and the BMW line over the past fifteen years to realize this. The basic formula and approach Lexus uses today differs little from that employed with the first generation LS400. Today's BMWs, however, wouldn't be recognized by a buyer fifteen years ago.
Lexus will not build a true driver's car of any kind unless there is some sort of cultural shift at Toyota. In fact, all of the evidence coming out of Toyota these days suggests that the entire company is headed in the opposite direction of that which you suggest - this is the same company that just killed off its last two sports cars (the Celica and MR2). Furthermore, the 2IS is clearly less involving to drive than its predecessor - has anybody here actually stopped to consider that?
If you are unable to do the same, then you are little better than a mindless lemming.
Another curious phenomenon is the rampant fanboyism (I really cannot think of a better word within a modern context) that seems to run through most consumers today. Why are so many people so quick to rabidly defend their purchases? Objectivity is a virtue - emotional response is not!
On with the show...
Lexus wants to be successful in Europe and the complaints about VDIM, etc will not fall on deaf ears. Mark my words - Lexus will produce a car that drivers will prefer over the Bimmer - it's just a matter of time.
They have everything else covered and they will overcome this one "deficiency". Ofcourse not everyone sees it as a "deficiency".
They have everything else covered and they will overcome this one "deficiency". Ofcourse not everyone sees it as a "deficiency".
You need only compare the evolution of the Lexus line and the BMW line over the past fifteen years to realize this. The basic formula and approach Lexus uses today differs little from that employed with the first generation LS400. Today's BMWs, however, wouldn't be recognized by a buyer fifteen years ago.
Lexus will not build a true driver's car of any kind unless there is some sort of cultural shift at Toyota. In fact, all of the evidence coming out of Toyota these days suggests that the entire company is headed in the opposite direction of that which you suggest - this is the same company that just killed off its last two sports cars (the Celica and MR2). Furthermore, the 2IS is clearly less involving to drive than its predecessor - has anybody here actually stopped to consider that?
03-21-06, 12:30 AM
#41
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Originally Posted by GlobeCLK
- the IS is not big but the 3 series is not exactly any more useable.
- the IS was available with a wagon and the new coupe will be out soon. No one buys the wagons anyways.
- those backseats are NOT useful. I sit in the back of one ever week and it gives me more cramps than my GF's PMS.
- having AWD on all powertrains DOESN'T make it a better car
- the 325i engine has larger displacement but performance results are not that much of a difference.
- you're right, the electronic nannys are easily defeated (meaning they don't work)
- better styling (subjective, but the 3 series won ugliest car 2005 from Top Gear)
i'll give you the better handling part.
So in the end, people who pick the 3 series pick it because of performance, and that's where the 3 has an obvious edge. I got nothing against that. It does feel better or whatever when cornering. I think that when you compare cars, you can pick a BETTER PERFORMER from performance, but you can't pick a better CAR simply because of performance. When you take out the handling of the 3 series, I really don't see much left. But for the IS, the extra power bragging rights are just the beginning.
Why live in 1 dimension?
- the IS was available with a wagon and the new coupe will be out soon. No one buys the wagons anyways.
- those backseats are NOT useful. I sit in the back of one ever week and it gives me more cramps than my GF's PMS.
- having AWD on all powertrains DOESN'T make it a better car
- the 325i engine has larger displacement but performance results are not that much of a difference.
- you're right, the electronic nannys are easily defeated (meaning they don't work)
- better styling (subjective, but the 3 series won ugliest car 2005 from Top Gear)
i'll give you the better handling part.
So in the end, people who pick the 3 series pick it because of performance, and that's where the 3 has an obvious edge. I got nothing against that. It does feel better or whatever when cornering. I think that when you compare cars, you can pick a BETTER PERFORMER from performance, but you can't pick a better CAR simply because of performance. When you take out the handling of the 3 series, I really don't see much left. But for the IS, the extra power bragging rights are just the beginning.
Why live in 1 dimension?
03-21-06, 02:04 AM
#42
Originally Posted by doug_999
Journalists love to find the next hit. The IS350 is unfortunately not that.
p.s. folks, I think we forgot about comparo (CD or MT or RT, forgot), when 3 series was broken, almost got them killed, could not complete any tests and still won. lol.
03-21-06, 05:06 AM
#43
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Originally Posted by spwolf
lol, IS350 is not next hit? yep, its current hit :-).
p.s. folks, I think we forgot about comparo (CD or MT or RT, forgot), when 3 series was broken, almost got them killed, could not complete any tests and still won. lol.
p.s. folks, I think we forgot about comparo (CD or MT or RT, forgot), when 3 series was broken, almost got them killed, could not complete any tests and still won. lol.
"Another curious phenomenon is the rampant fanboyism (I really cannot think of a better word within a modern context) that seems to run through most consumers today. Why are so many people so quick to rabidly defend their purchases? Objectivity is a virtue - emotional response is not!"
03-21-06, 05:59 AM
#44
Originally Posted by akhbhaat
Your arguments and methods of reasoning are so faulty that I'm not even going to bother correcting you.
the 330 is a one trick pony and its only trick is handling, too one dimensional, and it lacks everywhere else. I drove both the IS350 and 330 at Taste of Lexus and the 330 was more boring to drive. Felt sluggish coming out of a turn with that power defficiency, the steering was way too heavy to do any type of manuever involving a quick motion on the steering wheel. All of this was happening as I tried to keep myself from getting nauseated from the ugly interior. Fine I can enjoy the handling maybe 10% of the time when driving spirited. Frankly I'd rather have a car I can enjoy for the other 90% of the time
03-21-06, 06:56 AM
#45
EV ftw!!!
Originally Posted by akhbhaat
Lexus will not build a true driver's car of any kind unless there is some sort of cultural shift at Toyota. In fact, all of the evidence coming out of Toyota these days suggests that the entire company is headed in the opposite direction of that which you suggest - this is the same company that just killed off its last two sports cars (the Celica and MR2). Furthermore, the 2IS is clearly less involving to drive than its predecessor - has anybody here actually stopped to consider that?
Have you read the C&D reviews of the GS450H? One of its very significant characteristics is its performance/handling. I have not driven it or its Bimmer competition so clearly cannot comment on how it handles, but C&D writers clearly voiced a very positive rhetoric about its performance/handling quotient.
The new Lexus sports car making the test rounds in Europe on the Nurbugring track is another departure and cultural shift for Toyota/Lexus. Have you also missed that?
At the end of the day, it does not really matter what a writer or you or I think that matters. What matters more is how the individual feels about their purchase and their justification for the purchase that counts. Each to his/her own.