BMW has M, MB has AMG, Audi has S, and Lexus has "h".
03-23-06, 08:42 AM
#17
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To be in the same league as cars like the M5 and E55, the GS should have hybrid batteries matched to a V8.
Plus, some serious tightening up in the handling and sport department.
Plus, some serious tightening up in the handling and sport department.
03-23-06, 08:56 AM
#18
Originally Posted by spwolf
um, "i" means injection... :-). Left overs from decade ago...
yeah the i means injection from long time ago i believe
03-23-06, 09:01 AM
#20
Originally Posted by jrock65
To be in the same league as cars like the M5 and E55, the GS should have hybrid batteries matched to a V8.
Plus, some serious tightening up in the handling and sport department.
Plus, some serious tightening up in the handling and sport department.
h simply means hybrid.... which means more power, more mpg. Comparing it to M or AMG is wrong.
GS450h is perfectly comparable to 550i or E500, EXCEPT that is faster, gets better mpg, and costs less.
M5 costs 40k more... You can buy an IS350 and GS450h for the same price. I am not sure why would anyone compare them. Probably journalists felt that GS450h is very fast or fast enough too be M5 competitor. I would assume that would be because of electric torque giving huge amounts of power during drive...
03-23-06, 01:43 PM
#21
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I posted the article without comment to see what folks would say. If you are new to Club Lexus, welcome! You have a great little microcosm here without going through a lot of other threads to see who stands where on what whether it be closet bimmer uber all afficianado, Lexus can't be beat poster, or hybrid will do everything and make you feel good doing it fan.
The line the guy wrote about Lexus having h while the others had their letters has been discussed but I look at it a bit differently. If the letters mean that this is the low volume, special series then it is time to wake up, in that regard, Lexus will use h just like bimmer uses M, MB uses AMG, and Audi uses S. Mr. Carters' comment is quite clear to me. If you want to turn your personal reality distortion field down a bit go back and reread it. He says they could do an M5 equalling normally aspirated motor or put turbochargers on but they are not going to. The laughable L tuned experiment apparently is over. The special, low volume series from Lexus is h. Better get used to it. Lexus does not have any intention of making a limited volume series other than h.
The hybrid fanatics will surely disagree but I think a grand bet is about to be made in front of all of us. Whether the high end of the performance or comfort luxury field - Mr. Carters words, not mine - will pursue the hybrid models to the extent of M, AMG, or S just isn't known. We are going to see this bet play out in real time. After we get through all the guessing, opinion tossing, name calling, etc., the cars are going to be here shortly and get tested by the media. Now CR didn't do themselves any favor getting their math wrong but when they recalculated, the hybrid was still at a cost disadvantage, except for the Civic I think. Will saving $500 a year in gas do it for the comfort luxury buyer? We will see. Exactly what performance will the GS450h have in someone else's hands is going to be seen shortly. The widely thrown about 5.2 sec 0-60 time is Lexus's so they will have to stand behind it, very shortly. The other number, from Edmunds, is 5.5 which is still quick, at least in the 0-60 sprint. Maybe the cars in LV had problems but anywhere from 16 to 20 mpg on the trip computer is not what I would want to see in print in the WSJ if I worked at Lexus. And yes, I have already talked to business types who may also think that a bimmer i designation means i drive but they did read the article and are already not exactly waiting in eager anticipation for the opportunity to buy a hybrid. Mr. Carter also says that the equivalent price increase for a GS450h to a "well loaded" GS 430 would be around $1,090. I guess we will see about that too.
Will the h get a bimmer buyer into a Lexus? I guess we will see after the cars are really here and we aren't all just jawing around the campfire with our big hats but no cattle anywhere. But I really doubt it. Now there might be a whole lot of reasons why the RX330 are on the lot for less days than the RX400h but I would bet that Lexus is watching that carefully if it is at all true. To be blunt, from a performance perspective, I think Lexus peaked around 98 when the GS400 came out. They haven't really stepped up since then and have slowly slid from the performance side since then. And Mr. Carter makes it quite clear that they distinguish between the performance luxury market and the comfort luxury market although it is not anywhere near as clear to me where Lexus intends to be. Comfort but offer a competitive 0-60 time with better mileage with a reasonable premium? Whew, there's a mouthful for a business strategy. But if h really is their equivalent of M, AMG, or S, then it is going to be interesting to see what happens. Like I said, I get the feeling that Toyota is making a big bet on hybrid in the luxury end. What worked so well in the Prius may not work so well at the high end. But we don't need to ram our opinions down each others throats, we are going to find out for real very shortly. Should be interesting.
The line the guy wrote about Lexus having h while the others had their letters has been discussed but I look at it a bit differently. If the letters mean that this is the low volume, special series then it is time to wake up, in that regard, Lexus will use h just like bimmer uses M, MB uses AMG, and Audi uses S. Mr. Carters' comment is quite clear to me. If you want to turn your personal reality distortion field down a bit go back and reread it. He says they could do an M5 equalling normally aspirated motor or put turbochargers on but they are not going to. The laughable L tuned experiment apparently is over. The special, low volume series from Lexus is h. Better get used to it. Lexus does not have any intention of making a limited volume series other than h.
The hybrid fanatics will surely disagree but I think a grand bet is about to be made in front of all of us. Whether the high end of the performance or comfort luxury field - Mr. Carters words, not mine - will pursue the hybrid models to the extent of M, AMG, or S just isn't known. We are going to see this bet play out in real time. After we get through all the guessing, opinion tossing, name calling, etc., the cars are going to be here shortly and get tested by the media. Now CR didn't do themselves any favor getting their math wrong but when they recalculated, the hybrid was still at a cost disadvantage, except for the Civic I think. Will saving $500 a year in gas do it for the comfort luxury buyer? We will see. Exactly what performance will the GS450h have in someone else's hands is going to be seen shortly. The widely thrown about 5.2 sec 0-60 time is Lexus's so they will have to stand behind it, very shortly. The other number, from Edmunds, is 5.5 which is still quick, at least in the 0-60 sprint. Maybe the cars in LV had problems but anywhere from 16 to 20 mpg on the trip computer is not what I would want to see in print in the WSJ if I worked at Lexus. And yes, I have already talked to business types who may also think that a bimmer i designation means i drive but they did read the article and are already not exactly waiting in eager anticipation for the opportunity to buy a hybrid. Mr. Carter also says that the equivalent price increase for a GS450h to a "well loaded" GS 430 would be around $1,090. I guess we will see about that too.
Will the h get a bimmer buyer into a Lexus? I guess we will see after the cars are really here and we aren't all just jawing around the campfire with our big hats but no cattle anywhere. But I really doubt it. Now there might be a whole lot of reasons why the RX330 are on the lot for less days than the RX400h but I would bet that Lexus is watching that carefully if it is at all true. To be blunt, from a performance perspective, I think Lexus peaked around 98 when the GS400 came out. They haven't really stepped up since then and have slowly slid from the performance side since then. And Mr. Carter makes it quite clear that they distinguish between the performance luxury market and the comfort luxury market although it is not anywhere near as clear to me where Lexus intends to be. Comfort but offer a competitive 0-60 time with better mileage with a reasonable premium? Whew, there's a mouthful for a business strategy. But if h really is their equivalent of M, AMG, or S, then it is going to be interesting to see what happens. Like I said, I get the feeling that Toyota is making a big bet on hybrid in the luxury end. What worked so well in the Prius may not work so well at the high end. But we don't need to ram our opinions down each others throats, we are going to find out for real very shortly. Should be interesting.
03-23-06, 02:27 PM
#25
Originally Posted by genearch
It hasn't been established that it is faster that the 550i, nor that it actually gets better gas mileage in real world examples cited above, and at 4,100+ lbs, it certainly won't out handle the 550i,
No disrespect, but I don's believe that the GS450h will even be in the same zip code as the M5, regardless of the butt dynos.
When you are playing in the $50K and up range, the price tag is generally not a huge factor.
No disrespect, but I don's believe that the GS450h will even be in the same zip code as the M5, regardless of the butt dynos.
When you are playing in the $50K and up range, the price tag is generally not a huge factor.
As to the mpg, huh? I see no way that 550i will get anywhere close to GS450h's mpg, if they are driven equally. At steady highway mileage, GS450h has smaller V6. In the city, GS has free electric power. 300lbs is less than 10% weight.
Again, Edmunds drivers got worse mpg from Mazda 6 MPS than GS450h :-).
But I agree, handling is still undecided.... :-).
03-23-06, 08:28 PM
#26
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Who cares about "official" manufacturer's 0-60 numbers.
It's hard to say because there hasn't been side by side comparos, but I bet the 550i will nudge out the GS450h in 0-60. The 545i auto has been tested at 5.2s, so the 550i auto can probably do 5.0s, and 550i manual will do high 4's.
It's hard to say because there hasn't been side by side comparos, but I bet the 550i will nudge out the GS450h in 0-60. The 545i auto has been tested at 5.2s, so the 550i auto can probably do 5.0s, and 550i manual will do high 4's.
03-23-06, 08:49 PM
#27
Originally Posted by genearch
3. Handling is an unknown.. Lexus has had 16 years to make strides here, they haven't
definitely a gross exageration. Rumor has it that the LS460 will handle better
than the current LS430 boat, which might not be saying much but it is progress.
Honestly I could care less that it handles worse than BMW. If I did I would've
bought a 5 series and would be posting in ClubBMW.
03-23-06, 10:43 PM
#28
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Originally Posted by genearch
You are missing the point...
Lexus wants to move toward a "high performance" image. it's one thing to go in a straight line, and completely another to handle as a sports sedan should. MB has made great strides towards that end, Audi as well. Lexus has not. Nobody buys a Lexus for the steering feel...
I hope they can pull it off.. handling improvements from the 2GS to the 3GS have been very slight.
Lexus wants to move toward a "high performance" image. it's one thing to go in a straight line, and completely another to handle as a sports sedan should. MB has made great strides towards that end, Audi as well. Lexus has not. Nobody buys a Lexus for the steering feel...
I hope they can pull it off.. handling improvements from the 2GS to the 3GS have been very slight.
03-23-06, 11:02 PM
#29
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Originally Posted by genearch
You are missing the point...
Lexus wants to move toward a "high performance" image. it's one thing to go in a straight line, and completely another to handle as a sports sedan should. MB has made great strides towards that end, Audi as well. Lexus has not. Nobody buys a Lexus for the steering feel...
I hope they can pull it off.. handling improvements from the 2GS to the 3GS have been very slight.
Lexus wants to move toward a "high performance" image. it's one thing to go in a straight line, and completely another to handle as a sports sedan should. MB has made great strides towards that end, Audi as well. Lexus has not. Nobody buys a Lexus for the steering feel...
I hope they can pull it off.. handling improvements from the 2GS to the 3GS have been very slight.
I think there is much more evidence that Lexus wants to lead in the comfort luxury segment but still offer some technology that at least provides 0-60 giggles. Hybrid technology for Lexus may be geared solely to this sort of performance. I would have to admit that they appear to be walking a fine line with Lexus hybrid not wanting to sell it either on economy or performance basis alone. And this schizophrenia may be their undoing. I have no doubt that hybrid is a fascinating solution for high mileage purpose built cars like the Prius. But in the luxury field, either performance or comfort, we still don't know. In the real world it wouldn't be a bad idea to design around 0-60 performance but I don't see much indication that Lexus has interest in suspension development and their electronics may not be as actively annoying as the euros but it is definitely a passive anchor around performance. Unfortunately for Lexus, performance sells. So that gamble they are making on hybrid for Lexus is very interesting. I can absolutely believe there will be limited availability of the hybrids. Until there is demonstrated sustained demand for several years, it would be unwise to commit to a lot of manufacturing capacity for Lexus hybrids.