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Bush may raise fuel standards - imposing average of 25 mpg by 2011

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Old 03-23-06, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
And he'll be in office to enforce What about the record deficeit he leaves us?

And the booming economy that the libbies won't recognize? Production is at the same levels as the peak Clinton years, Unemployment is at the same low... the housing market is still growing.

When it comes to the economy; NBC news and all of their fans seem only to criticize about the deficit. If there werent so many damn social programs for special interest groups (thank you Mr Clinton) there wouldnt be such a big issue about it. Well there might be, the liberal media seems to try to find something wrong with anything. I mean damn, last years Hurricane season was Bush's fault too wasn't it?
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Old 03-23-06, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by DASHOCKER
He is not accepting responsibilty for a war based on false pretenses. That is narrow minded to the 5th power.
False pretenses? Russia, Britian, and France still don't recognize the 'false information' as false. (Saddam attempting to acquire materials from Egypt case in point). Maybe you should do a little more research and a little less watching primetime television?
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Old 03-23-06, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by DASHOCKER
He is not accepting responsibilty for a war based on false pretenses. That is narrow minded to the 5th power.
yeah it's far easier to launch petty little political attacks meant to demean your opponent than it is to look at tough problems that this country faces and come up with reasonable solutions to them. This is what the left has been doing these days, it's what they keep on doing, and it's also why they keep on losing elections too. I respect people with both points of views on that issue, but AFAIC the debate was settled on Nov 2, 2004 and a lot on the left need to take their own advice and "moveon.org".

As for CAFE, the standards are split into "cars" and "trucks" and honestly a lot has changed in the automotive market since this was setup. There's the whole crossover segment which can really be either/or. And there's been a lot of segmentation in the market where manufacturers carve out a little niche for themselves and then become specialties in that niche. Should a company like Subaru be penalized by CAFE for making good and reasonable alternatives to truck based SUVs that are much more efficient, yet then still get put in the "cars" category and have to meet the tougher cars standards? I don't think that's really fair, so no. And Subaru can't just make AWD optional because their entire business model is built on selling tons of AWD cars which gives them the economies of scale to build it right into the car and have it competitively priced with a FWD competitor that might charge $2k extra for AWD. And apparently there are some FWD "SUVs" that get really good mileage yet are still put in the "truck" category, which offsets some truly dismal ratings of the manufacturers other trucks which shouldn't be happening.

So in my view the system is flawed a bit, and the question is how to fix it. Maybe another classification should be created. But then again you don't want to make it too easy for manufacturers either, because you want them to keep innovating and improving their products. Having easy standards goes against that. Or maybe the gov't shouldn't do anything (hands off) and just let the market adjust by itself. $4-5/gal gas tomorrow = I go down to the Honda dealership and get on the wait list for a Honda Fit Sport in red and 5MT ftw. That's the market adjusting all by itself with no gov't intervention at all.
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Old 03-23-06, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Bean
False pretenses? Russia, Britian, and France still don't recognize the 'false information' as false. (Saddam attempting to acquire materials from Egypt case in point). Maybe you should do a little more research and a little less watching primetime television?

Why then did none of these countries go into Iraq, because they knew that attacking a 70 year old dictator that at very worst had expired weapons from the old Iran/Iraq war, weapons we gave him to fight Iran btw, was a complete waste of time and manpower, while we ignore North Korea who already has nukes and let Iraq form a government that becomes an extension of Iran (the next nuke threat), I'm sure you guys will find a way to blame that on Clinton as well.
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Old 03-23-06, 08:41 PM
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Looks like this thread maybe heading to the Debate forum
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Old 03-23-06, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by DASHOCKER
He is a president for the record books Any current discussion of fuel economy is colored by the conflict in the Middle East, rising gas prices and surging global demand for oil, particularly in China. But amending corporate average fuel economy rules - known as CAFE standards - is also fraught with questions about jobs and safety and safety.

Jobs, because the traditional Big Three - General Motors, the Ford Motor
Company and the Chrysler Group division of DaimlerChrysler would suffer and by raising the fuel economy standards would benefit foreign-based rivals, particularly an automaker like Honda that does not sell the largest vehicles. Safety, because one way to improve fuel economy is to make lighter vehicles,which tend to fare worse in crashes with heavier ones. Bush needs to look at alternatives, but he is too narrow minded
So in other words, you've no idea what he should do?
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Old 03-24-06, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Indio
Why then did none of these countries go into Iraq, because they knew that attacking a 70 year old dictator that at very worst had expired weapons from the old Iran/Iraq war, weapons we gave him to fight Iran btw, was a complete waste of time and manpower, while we ignore North Korea who already has nukes and let Iraq form a government that becomes an extension of Iran (the next nuke threat), I'm sure you guys will find a way to blame that on Clinton as well.
The correct answer to question #1 is the "UN OIl for Food Scandal"

And at least in my view, your reasoning is fundamentally flawed. It could very well take a war to stop somebody from developing WMDs. It's also possible that after that war, people will cry out that they never had WMDs so what was the point of the war? Duh, to stop them from getting them in the first place! Why does NK have nukes now? Because Clinton sat on his *** and did not do crap while Kim Jong Il developed a nuke right under his nose with OUR MONEY! That's why. So if you want to cry about NK having a nuke, then why don't you go ask Clinton why he didn't do a damned thing to stop him. Saddam will never have WMDs, because Bush did something. If he didn't, then in 2-5 years instead of crying about a "worthless war" you would be crying about how Bush didn't do anything to stop him. It's self-defeating, and which situation is better. Go ahead and cry about how "worthless" the war is. I'm going to rest in peace knowing that a mad man who had every intention to get and use WMDs no longer has to be worried about.

The dirty little secret here is not what the media reports, but rather what they DON'T report. They try to report the UN oil for food scandal as little as possible because it exposes the UN for what it really is. A ridiculously corrupt and inept organization that fails miserably at its intended mission. This makes the "MSM" look really dumb, and Bush look really smart for bypassing them, and they hate that because the MSM is 85-90% liberal and hate him anyways. The dirty little secret from Iraq is not "no WMDs found" but rather what they DID find.

Here are five pages from Ari Fleischer's book, "Taking Heat". Ari was Bush's first press secretary.

We never did find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Although we found old artillery shells with traces of sarin gas and other chemicals, we have yet to discover any of the chemical or biological stockpiles we thought we would discover there. Yet President Bush still won reelection.

We live today in an era of danger much like the Cold War. Except for a ten-year period between the fall of the Berlin Wall and the attack on the World Trade Center, foreign policy and defense-related issues have been a staple of American elections from World War II through the present. The nineties were a false respite when our elections turned mostly inward, with foreign affairs, terrorism, and defense spending relegated to second- or third-tier issues in the minds of the voters. September 11 changed our nation's focus much the way Pearl Harbor did.

In 2004, voters who worried about terrorism and keeping America safe voted overwhelmingly to reelect President Bush, despite our failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and despite numerous attacks on the President for deceiving our nation and lying our way into war.

I said, from the White House podium, on many occasions that we knew Saddam Hussein possessed chemical weapons. I said we knew Saddam possessed biological weapons.

Why did I say it?

I said it because it was the best judgement of the career intelligence analysts who serve our nation. I said it because my boss, President George W. Bush, said it, just as President Clinton had said it before him, and just as Vice President Gore said it. Senator John Kerry said it as well in a speech on the Senate floor in 2002. According to the arms inspector David Kay, France in the 1990s concluded Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, and so did Germany. The United Nations also thought it was true.

If we all said it, then what happened? Where are these weapons of mass destruction?

It seems to me only four things could have happened. One is Saddam moved them out of Iraq before the war without us knowing it. Two is Saddam destroyed them and left no evidence behind. Three is that he hid them somewhere in Iraq and we've yet to discover them. Four is that Iraq didn't have weapons of mass destruction and we were all wrong.

David Kay, the former UN chief weapons inspector and head of the Iraq Survey Group that was sent by the U.S. government to search for weapons of mass detruction after the war, said we may all have been wrong. He reported we had not found any stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction.

That was the honest assessment of an honest man. But it wasn't all that David Kay reported. His statement commanded attention, and it dominated the headlines. But as always, there was more to the news than the headlines. Here's what else David Kay said when he submitted his report to Congress in October 2003:

"We have discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that begain in late 2002."

These included "a clandestine network of laboratories and safe-houses maintained by the Iraqi intelligence service. 'Reference strains' of biological organisms, concealed in a scientist's home, including a live strain of deadly botulinum, and new research on Brucella, Congo Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever, ricin and aflatoxin.

"In the chemical and biological weapons area we have confidence that there were at minimum clandestine on-going research and development activities that were embedded in the Iraqi Intelilgence Service," Kay reported.


On Janurary 28, 2004, when David Kay, the man who said we hadn't found any weapons of mass destruction, testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee, he said, "If you read the total body of intelligence in the last twelve to fifteen years that flowed out of Iraq, I quite frankly think it would be hard to come to a conclusion other than Iraq was a gathering, serious threat to the world with regard to WMD.... I think the world is far safer with the disappearance and the removal of Saddam Hussein. I have said I actually think this may be one of those cases where it was even more dangerous than we thought."

In other words, Kay said we did not find actual weapons of mass destruction. Instead, we found an ongoing, active reasearch and development effort to create chemical and biological weapons, even while the UN inspectors were in Iraq, hidden in scientists' homes.

Charles Duelfer, who succeeded Kay, confirmed in October 2004 that no weapons of mass destruction were found. He reported, however, that at the beginning of 2003 Saddam probably had the capability to produce mustard agent within six months and nerve agents in significant quantities within two years.

What purpose could there be for Saddam to pursue these weapons in violation of international law? I don't think they were for "peaceful purposes," not in the hands of Saddam and his sons, Qusai and Odai.

Saddam pledged as the price for ending the 1991 Gulf War to abandon his pursuit of weaponry, particularly weapons of mass destruction. But he didn't.

The Bush adminsitration may have beeon wrong about Saddam's actual capabilities, but we weren't wrong about his intentions. To this day, I believe it was only a matter of time before Saddam would have confronted the West, Israel included, with weapons of mass destruction. He had a history of using the weapons he possessed, and he had a history of aggression against his neighbors. He attacked Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Israel. I don't think he was contained or constrained; he was biding his time.

If this war wasn't fought in 2003, it was only a matter of time until it would have had to have been fought, this time against an enemy that probably would have had weapons of mass destruction and would have used them against our military forces. Critics who accept Kay's and Duelfer's conclusion that Saddam didn't have active weapons of mass destruction can't dismiss the finding the at he was developing them.

Particularly after we learned, on Spetember 11, how vulnerable we are to a suprise attack, could an American president take a chance that Saddam Hussein either had or was trying to obtain weapons of mass destruction without confronting him? If I and others in the administration had never said that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, even though we had good reason to believe it at the time, and instead said he had an ongoing, active research and development effort to obtain chemical and biological weapons, that alone in my judgment would have been reason to go to war. For the safety of the American people, we couldn't let Saddam possess weapons of mass destruction, nor could we let him seek them, hoping that he somehow never obtained them, or once he obtained them he wouldn't use them. Saddam was a unique threat, and so were his ruthless sons. They're threats no more.

As divided as America became over the war, I think back to what Czech President Havel and the Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel told the President. If only action had been taken in 1938 or 1939, World War II could have been averted, they said. Winston Churchill was seen by many in Europe at the time as a militarist not interested in peace. If the world had taken military action in the 1930s, I'm sure some would have said that Hitler wasn't the threat Churchill claimed him to be. They would have caviled: Lives would have been lost, and for what reason? Who will rebuild Germany? Isn't it a mess?

We'll never know if President Bush, along with Britain's Tony Blair and the eladers of Spain, Italy, Poland, Austrailia, and many of our east European allies, averted a third world war by deposing Saddam before he possessed and used weapons of mass destruction. It would have been fanciful to think in 1938 that World War II could have been averted had the **** threat been removed before it fully materialized.

We may not know, but I sleep better at night knowing that the risk posed by Saddam is gone and that the man who gave $25,000 to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers will never again be in a position to give them, or anyone, aid or comfort. The risk is gone, and I feel the world is better because of it.
Ari Fleischer, "Taking Heat", pg 365-369, William Morrow Press

So yeah, feel free to go ahead and call the war "worthless" if you want. Feel free to add a "Mission NOTHING Accomplished" bumper sticker to your car too so that I can laugh. Saddam WAS still developing WMDs, right under the UN's nose, and the only way we found out about it before he had them is because Bush had the ***** to do what nobody else had the ***** to do and did the world a big favor. Now maybe if Clinton had the ***** to confront Kim Jong Il in North Korea back the the 90's NK wouldn't have a nuke now, but Clinton was not even paying attention to a single damned thing NK did! And now just the other day KJI was rattling the saber again threatening to launch nuke tipped ICBMs at us. Lovely!

Too bad the "MSM" didn't find any of this "newsworthy" and just stuck to the "no WMDs found" line and kept repeating it ad nauseum. The media simply cannot be trusted to get things straight, which is why I don't watch them anymore. They feed you a bunch of filtered BS and tell you what they want you to hear "no WMDs" and not what you OUGHT to hear: "tons of evidence of clandestine WMD programs found in Iraq". Yeah, like the New York Times would ever put that front and center in the paper.

As for Iran, Bush has said "Iran will not be allowed to have weapons of mass destruction" and "all options are on the table". Do you think he means it? LOL I think he does. Even Quaddafi of Libya got scared and surrendered his weapons programs to the UN without a single shot fired. He humbled out a bit after Reagan (another Rep with serious *****) bombed his presidential palace in the 80's and killed one or two of his kids. And who really cares what Europe does or says anyways. They only thing they'll fight for are their socialist welfare programs. Read about the riots in France lately? lol. And they put their own little oil contracts with Saddam before international security so we now how trustworthy the UN is to take care of things. So we're safe until 2008. Pray the Reps field somebody good and that they win, because knowing the Dems and their pathetic record on anti-terrorism, national security, and WMD proliferation, they would probably make some "deal" with Iran and actually trust them and then 5 years later they'll announce they have a nuke just like KJI did on Clinton.

:OWNED:

My favorite bumper sticker of 2004: "Who would the terrorists vote for? Certainly NOT Bush!"

And like usual, the left has no ideas, and nothing to contribute to the national debate other than what an idiot Bush surely must be, when they don't even know what the hell they're talking about themselves. OMG lets impeach Bush! Wiretaps!! Patriot Act!! CBS News conducted a poll the other week that found that the majority of Americans actually support the wiretap issue. Guess what? CBS didn't consider that "newsworthy" and instead reported about Bush's lowest ever approval ratings. heh.


</rant>
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Old 03-24-06, 04:39 AM
  #23  
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You guys are forgeting the most obvious thing. All these Federal gas mileage figures are nothing but political figures written on paper. They have little or no correlation to what you, as a driver, will actually acheive on the road. So Bush and Congress get together and decide they're going to raise standards by 1 or 2 MPG. Fine.....Big deal. The auto manufacturers adjust the engine computers and fuel injectors to squirt out a little leaner mixture and pump up the tire pressures a little to lessen rolling resistance....maybe cycle the A/C compressor on and off a little more...and presto, you get the vehicles to pass and get their certification. So, what's that actually going to mean on the road.....especially with things like weather, traffic congestion, road surface, driver skill, and a million other factors that affect day-to-day gas mileage? In all likelihood little or nothing. You will always have leadfoots, people who neglect or overload their cars, don't maintain tire pressure, toss out the factory tires ( the ones the car was certified with ) for more aggressive ones, redo the engine computers with performance " chips", etc.....
So we're right back to square one. Bush and Congress, instead of wasting their time with this kind of nonsense, would be far better advised to deal with the country's REAL problems...security, terrorism, deteriorating roads and bridges, sprawl, congestion, crime, and never-ending illegal immigration.

Last edited by mmarshall; 03-24-06 at 04:44 AM.
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