mmarshall

Sorry, mods. I know we got off topic. Back to hybrids.

xioix

Well smaller slower cars usually get better gas mileages

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

You see, this is what I was getting at in my other posts. If you build a hybrid more for economy like these cars I can see them being worth it. Everyone of these cars gets at least 8-11 MPG more with only a moderate descrease in performance. This is what a hybrid should be as they start to make economical sense even if they cost more to begine with. Unlike the performance hybrids I was talking about that are not at that level of return yet. What I like about these hybrids over cars like the Prius and Insight are that they look more or less normal like their non hybrid version.

spwolf

Actually, aside from Lupo and Smart car diesels, which are essentially 2 seater little bitty cars with really small 3 cly diesel engines, no other diesel cars get same fuel economy as Prius. Actually, I am not sure if you can buy Lupo anymore. It was car half size of current Yaris 3 door.

There are definetly not many cars that get more mpg than Prius in Europe. Even small, tiny Aygo and its PSA twins, with very light construction (less than 900kg) and 55hp anemic diesel engine get same rated mpg as Prius. As to the Prius not getting claimed mpg, diesels dont either. Which is why ADAC after doing 100,000 km with their test Prius called it most ecological car in Germany, with tiny diesels being placed after Prius (and main reason is fuel economy), for 2 years in a row.

VW Polo (Yaris competitor) with 70hp diesel engine gets worse mpg than Prius.

Reason I mentioned Toyota diesels is because their 4cly units are very economical and advanced. Only drawback is that Toyota doesnt do non-turbo diesels (VW still does), and doesnt put diesels with less than 90hp in their cars.

I would simply love for you to do an Jetta diesel comparison to Camry Hybrid. And let me know what you think. It still cant get into my head that someone who is into luxury cars thinks diesels are great.
Not only that, but when new diesels arrive in the US, they will be at least 1k-1.5k more expensive than before, with higher powered versions being even more expensive.

spwolf

it really depends on what you compare it to. Even performance hybrids get 20-30% better mpg over their performance competitors. Lexus knows that luxury car buyers are not willing to spend MORE money for less performance. For instance, imagine lexus selling GS360h with "same" performance as GS350 but costing 3k-5k more? Who would buy it? Even if it gets 10mpg more. Thats the whole problem.

Another thing to note is resale value. With mpg being more and more important, it will be harder to sell V8 cars at resale. This is why Prius right now has great resale value. Same thing happened with diesels in Europe. Even if you cant recoup extra costs in mpg when you buy diesel over petrol, you get it all back and more at resale. Most people get diesel these days because of the resale value which pays of for the difference in car cost.

Faraaz23

What about performance? It seems to me... please correct me if i'm wrong... that with diesels u get most of the power down low, and not as much hp. Thats what I like about performance hybrids, u can still have the performance benefits of the gasoline type engines.

Also, I know diesels have come a LONG way in the last 15 years as far as NVH, but are they as smooth as the new lexus engines?

I'm interested to see these new diesels come to the US. They seem to show some promise.

spwolf

Diesels perform quite nicely. They have huge torque. Previous problem was that torque range was limited. They have improved that so now you can get same torque range for 2,000 rpm. For example, from 1,500 rpm to 3,500 rpm. Below or after that, you really lose power. Better engines move for more than few hundred rpm more. BMW has twin turbo diesels which have twin turbines and can move nicely for some 3,000-3,500 rpm. It works nicely in practice. In fact, a lot of people now buy diesels also as performance varaints of their vehicles, as supposed to 4cly versions.

Of course, to compare with speed of Camry Hybrid, you would have to have one pretty powerful diesel engine, something out of ordinary for the price class.

And diesels are nowhere as smooth as 4cly, let alone V6's. Not even close. Noise is there in S class, let alone smaller vehicles. VW and Audi's are pretty bad with their PD's which is why now VW is moving to common rail.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

I'm comparing it to the same brand non hybrid version. Yes, if you compare say a Lexus GS450H to an Infiniti M45 there is a big difference, but that is not my point. My point is if I'm going to buy a GS, or a Camry, I'd be looking at the non hybrid version vs its hybrid version and seeing if it is worth it to pay the extra for the hybrid. As I see it now, the Camry hybrid might be worth it over the non hybrid, but the GS hybrid IMHO is still not worth it over the GS350 non hybrid. I don't care about the competitors, all I care about is within the same brand and same model.

As for resale value, I personally don't care. Here is the reason. As you and I both know the hybrid technology is only starting and will only get better. In 5 years I can only imagine how much better it will be. If I bought my hybrid car today that gets 10MPG more than the non hybrid and about 40 MPG average, in 5 years I'm willing to bet that the hybrid bar will be higher yielding better economy for cheaper. I think I would have a hard time selling my 2006 hybrid in 2011 for such a higher premium when the 2011 hybrids will probably be much cheaper than they are today (Factoring in inflation) and offer a lot better economy as well as probably performance.

Also, even if the hybrid versions do in fact hold a higher resale value vs its non hybrid, the cost savings for someone buying it used in 5 years would be even worse. Consider that a GS450H might hold 55% of its value and sell for $30K used after 5 years. Compare that to a GS350 that might hold 48% of its value and sell for $24K used after 5 years. That is a 6K differece for the used car buyer. That is a lot of money. At $3.00 to $3.50 a gallon it will still take that new used car owner 5+ years to recoupe that saving in fuel. At $4-5 a gallon though it might start to make sense. So, it really depends on exactly how high gas prices do raise in the future, and also depends on how much hybrid technology improves as well as how much lower the cost of its ownership become. I'm not willing to bank my money on the resale value of the hybrid today. What I am willing to bet on is technology will continue to improve and the cost of ownership will descrease as more competition enters the market. It is either that, or an entirely new form of technology will come about and hybrids might not be around. Either way, the resale value part is the last thing on my mind. I can assure you, when I do buy a hybrid it will be brand new. I'm not in the least interested in a used hybrid with older technology, and I don't think I'll be alone on that.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Funny, a former co-worker of mine also has a diesel Jetta that gets 50+mpg on highway and LOVES it. He has a long highway commute for work and it's saved him a fortune. A hybrid wouldn't save him any money.

LexusLuver

Interesting to find all these people are beating EPA estimates of 35/42mpg in their Jetta TDI's

LexusLuver

Really $23660 for the Jetta w/auto and rear passenger airbags
$26535 for a Camry

$2875 difference. Yeah I'd take the Camry rather than deal w/100hp.