Road&Track-The Hybrid Payoff: Camry, Escape, Civic
#17
Originally Posted by mmarshall
Well then , take a look at some of the NON-Toyota diesels. VW has a small car in Europe called the Lupo that can get almost 80 MPG with its small 1.2L diesel. There are MANY small cars with diesels in Europe that can get in excess of the 50-60 MPG that the Prius is rated at ( but usually does not actually get ). I won't go down the whole list...since you are already in Europe, I'm sure you are familiar with some of them.
Now, closer to home here in the American market........a co-worker of mine is on his second American-spec VW Jetta diesel. Even with the lousy diesel fuel we get here in America that cannot compare to the excellent fuel in Europe ( and which is soon coming here ) he was getting 60 MPG on the highway before the engine was even broken in. !
( I cautioned him, of course, about driving a brand-new engine long distances at the same engine speed )
Now...why have I not done a formal review yet of an American-spec diesel? Not much interest in it on CL to date, and the fact that right now it would really mean much since new diesel fuel AND new diesel engines are shortly coming to the U.S....but I'll do one if you want me to.
Beetle? Passat ? Which one do you want.....they have both at the Subaru-VW dealership I got my Outback at. The new Golf and Passat diesels are not yet available here.
Now, closer to home here in the American market........a co-worker of mine is on his second American-spec VW Jetta diesel. Even with the lousy diesel fuel we get here in America that cannot compare to the excellent fuel in Europe ( and which is soon coming here ) he was getting 60 MPG on the highway before the engine was even broken in. !
( I cautioned him, of course, about driving a brand-new engine long distances at the same engine speed )
Now...why have I not done a formal review yet of an American-spec diesel? Not much interest in it on CL to date, and the fact that right now it would really mean much since new diesel fuel AND new diesel engines are shortly coming to the U.S....but I'll do one if you want me to.
Beetle? Passat ? Which one do you want.....they have both at the Subaru-VW dealership I got my Outback at. The new Golf and Passat diesels are not yet available here.
#18
Lexus Test Driver
iTrader: (1)
Originally Posted by spwolf
Something that I have been trying to explain for a while, but nobody that didnt drive hybrid before wants to accept. Check PCH MPG that R&T got - V6 Camry got 26 mpg, which is good, BUT Hybrid Camry got 46.5 MPG!!!! Thats 20 mpg more and more than what EPA indicates.
Hybrids indeed get better mpg on highway than conventional cars. Even though that was an V6 Camry, you can check Civic EX which got "only" 33 MPG, or 13 MPG less than Camry Hybrid, despite being slower, lighter vehicle with smaller engine.
You see, this is what I was getting at in my other posts. If you build a hybrid more for economy like these cars I can see them being worth it. Everyone of these cars gets at least 8-11 MPG more with only a moderate descrease in performance. This is what a hybrid should be as they start to make economical sense even if they cost more to begine with. Unlike the performance hybrids I was talking about that are not at that level of return yet. What I like about these hybrids over cars like the Prius and Insight are that they look more or less normal like their non hybrid version.
#19
Originally Posted by mmarshall
Well then , take a look at some of the NON-Toyota diesels. VW has a small car in Europe called the Lupo that can get almost 80 MPG with its small 1.2L diesel. There are MANY small cars with diesels in Europe that can get in excess of the 50-60 MPG that the Prius is rated at ( but usually does not actually get ). I won't go down the whole list...since you are already in Europe, I'm sure you are familiar with some of them.
.
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There are definetly not many cars that get more mpg than Prius in Europe. Even small, tiny Aygo and its PSA twins, with very light construction (less than 900kg) and 55hp anemic diesel engine get same rated mpg as Prius. As to the Prius not getting claimed mpg, diesels dont either. Which is why ADAC after doing 100,000 km with their test Prius called it most ecological car in Germany, with tiny diesels being placed after Prius (and main reason is fuel economy), for 2 years in a row.
VW Polo (Yaris competitor) with 70hp diesel engine gets worse mpg than Prius.
Reason I mentioned Toyota diesels is because their 4cly units are very economical and advanced. Only drawback is that Toyota doesnt do non-turbo diesels (VW still does), and doesnt put diesels with less than 90hp in their cars.
I would simply love for you to do an Jetta diesel comparison to Camry Hybrid. And let me know what you think. It still cant get into my head that someone who is into luxury cars thinks diesels are great.
Not only that, but when new diesels arrive in the US, they will be at least 1k-1.5k more expensive than before, with higher powered versions being even more expensive.
#20
Originally Posted by CK6Speed
You see, this is what I was getting at in my other posts. If you build a hybrid more for economy like these cars I can see them being worth it. Everyone of these cars gets at least 8-11 MPG more with only a moderate descrease in performance. This is what a hybrid should be as they start to make economical sense even if they cost more to begine with. Unlike the performance hybrids I was talking about that are not at that level of return yet. What I like about these hybrids over cars like the Prius and Insight are that they look more or less normal like their non hybrid version.
Another thing to note is resale value. With mpg being more and more important, it will be harder to sell V8 cars at resale. This is why Prius right now has great resale value. Same thing happened with diesels in Europe. Even if you cant recoup extra costs in mpg when you buy diesel over petrol, you get it all back and more at resale. Most people get diesel these days because of the resale value which pays of for the difference in car cost.
#21
Lexus Test Driver
What about performance? It seems to me... please correct me if i'm wrong... that with diesels u get most of the power down low, and not as much hp. Thats what I like about performance hybrids, u can still have the performance benefits of the gasoline type engines.
Also, I know diesels have come a LONG way in the last 15 years as far as NVH, but are they as smooth as the new lexus engines?
I'm interested to see these new diesels come to the US. They seem to show some promise.
Also, I know diesels have come a LONG way in the last 15 years as far as NVH, but are they as smooth as the new lexus engines?
I'm interested to see these new diesels come to the US. They seem to show some promise.
#22
Originally Posted by Faraaz23
What about performance? It seems to me... please correct me if i'm wrong... that with diesels u get most of the power down low, and not as much hp. Thats what I like about performance hybrids, u can still have the performance benefits of the gasoline type engines.
Also, I know diesels have come a LONG way in the last 15 years as far as NVH, but are they as smooth as the new lexus engines?
I'm interested to see these new diesels come to the US. They seem to show some promise.
Also, I know diesels have come a LONG way in the last 15 years as far as NVH, but are they as smooth as the new lexus engines?
I'm interested to see these new diesels come to the US. They seem to show some promise.
Of course, to compare with speed of Camry Hybrid, you would have to have one pretty powerful diesel engine, something out of ordinary for the price class.
And diesels are nowhere as smooth as 4cly, let alone V6's. Not even close. Noise is there in S class, let alone smaller vehicles. VW and Audi's are pretty bad with their PD's which is why now VW is moving to common rail.
#23
Lexus Test Driver
iTrader: (1)
Originally Posted by spwolf
it really depends on what you compare it to. Even performance hybrids get 20-30% better mpg over their performance competitors. Lexus knows that luxury car buyers are not willing to spend MORE money for less performance. For instance, imagine lexus selling GS360h with "same" performance as GS350 but costing 3k-5k more? Who would buy it? Even if it gets 10mpg more. Thats the whole problem.
Another thing to note is resale value. With mpg being more and more important, it will be harder to sell V8 cars at resale. This is why Prius right now has great resale value. Same thing happened with diesels in Europe. Even if you cant recoup extra costs in mpg when you buy diesel over petrol, you get it all back and more at resale. Most people get diesel these days because of the resale value which pays of for the difference in car cost.
Another thing to note is resale value. With mpg being more and more important, it will be harder to sell V8 cars at resale. This is why Prius right now has great resale value. Same thing happened with diesels in Europe. Even if you cant recoup extra costs in mpg when you buy diesel over petrol, you get it all back and more at resale. Most people get diesel these days because of the resale value which pays of for the difference in car cost.
I'm comparing it to the same brand non hybrid version. Yes, if you compare say a Lexus GS450H to an Infiniti M45 there is a big difference, but that is not my point. My point is if I'm going to buy a GS, or a Camry, I'd be looking at the non hybrid version vs its hybrid version and seeing if it is worth it to pay the extra for the hybrid. As I see it now, the Camry hybrid might be worth it over the non hybrid, but the GS hybrid IMHO is still not worth it over the GS350 non hybrid. I don't care about the competitors, all I care about is within the same brand and same model.
As for resale value, I personally don't care. Here is the reason. As you and I both know the hybrid technology is only starting and will only get better. In 5 years I can only imagine how much better it will be. If I bought my hybrid car today that gets 10MPG more than the non hybrid and about 40 MPG average, in 5 years I'm willing to bet that the hybrid bar will be higher yielding better economy for cheaper. I think I would have a hard time selling my 2006 hybrid in 2011 for such a higher premium when the 2011 hybrids will probably be much cheaper than they are today (Factoring in inflation) and offer a lot better economy as well as probably performance.
Also, even if the hybrid versions do in fact hold a higher resale value vs its non hybrid, the cost savings for someone buying it used in 5 years would be even worse. Consider that a GS450H might hold 55% of its value and sell for $30K used after 5 years. Compare that to a GS350 that might hold 48% of its value and sell for $24K used after 5 years. That is a 6K differece for the used car buyer. That is a lot of money. At $3.00 to $3.50 a gallon it will still take that new used car owner 5+ years to recoupe that saving in fuel. At $4-5 a gallon though it might start to make sense. So, it really depends on exactly how high gas prices do raise in the future, and also depends on how much hybrid technology improves as well as how much lower the cost of its ownership become. I'm not willing to bank my money on the resale value of the hybrid today. What I am willing to bet on is technology will continue to improve and the cost of ownership will descrease as more competition enters the market. It is either that, or an entirely new form of technology will come about and hybrids might not be around. Either way, the resale value part is the last thing on my mind. I can assure you, when I do buy a hybrid it will be brand new. I'm not in the least interested in a used hybrid with older technology, and I don't think I'll be alone on that.
#24
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
Originally Posted by mmarshall
Now, closer to home here in the American market........a co-worker of mine is on his second American-spec VW Jetta diesel. Even with the lousy diesel fuel we get here in America that cannot compare to the excellent fuel in Europe ( and which is soon coming here ) he was getting 60 MPG on the highway before the engine was even broken in. !
#26
Lexus Test Driver
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Originally Posted by bitkahuna
He has a long highway commute for work and it's saved him a fortune. A hybrid wouldn't save him any money.
$26535 for a Camry
$2875 difference. Yeah I'd take the Camry rather than deal w/100hp.
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