MGS4

lots

Rockville

1990 when the V8 LS400 was the price of a 6 cylinder 300E it would be good for him to wake up and see the progress that has been made since then. Those were the days of ABS and Traction Control, usermel. Now are the days of VDIM. A Lexus first I might add unavailable on the three pointed star.. VSC happened back in 1998. The new ES350 should please a value conscious retrogrouch as it outperforms the original LS in every respect yet costs much less because of a little thing called inflation. The house you live in is not worth so much more because it's getting better with age, your dollars are just worth much less. The new ES350 has more HP, Torque, fuel efficiency, interior quietude and all weather traction not to mention front, knee, side curtain and side mounted front and rear airbags than the original LS you had a love affair wth only offered frontal protection. Now we have brake assist, brakeforce distribution, Ultra Low emissions, Gen. 5 Navigation, Mark Levinson, quadruple climate zones, Pre collision systems and Hybrids. The German Luxmobiles Usermel is so ambivalent about offer Diesels as an alternative. Did you know that diesels put out Dioxin? That is not what I want to breathe at any price. I sold the S Class (Saunder) when Usermel purchase his first LS. It was about that time that Gas Guzzler taxes were introduced and the "S" Class of today has kept that tradition alive. Did you know that Lexus has never had a model that had a gas guzzler tax? The new stellar 600hL that Usermel is warning about will probably have a Hybrid tax credit!

What I read between the lines of Usermel's rant is that he wants Lexus to keep the price down and wants to look for support from the Lexus faithful to have a peaceful demonstration threatening to take their business elsewhere. Lexus outsold MB last year by 75,000 units and BMW by 35,000 in the US. The places where Benz and BMW were strong are now under siege by Lexus. The new IS is an unqualified hit that will improve market share. The GS350 will bring new Lexus owners into the fold. The upper echelon buyers are giving me deposits on LS460's and 600hL's coming out in the October and next April already. Even European buyers have voted the Lexus the most reliable in surveys. The new ES350 is just arriving and MB and BMW don't even have a FWD model to market against it so it will just sell another 70,000 without a challenge from der Faderland.

My question is how much longer can Mercedes Benz trade on its history and pedigree? BMW is the only other fighter in the ring with Lexus and the battle ensues......BMW just announced that they are experimenting with engine shutoff when the car is at rest. They are also working on capturing the kinetic energy when braking. These are only two of the features of the Lexus Hybrid Synergy drive. Did I forget to mention that the BMW prices just keep going up, up, up?

Anyone considering the new "S"Class should wait until they get the air suspension perfected as I've heard of three failures in the first month of ownership without a fix yet as they sit waiting for parts shipment from Deutschland. Those owners must feel real special after putting down their $90,000.

Be careful what you wish for Usermel...Lexus is still a cheap date.

Rock

usermel

Cant take anyone being critical of you beloved Lexus Hay buddy. Do you own Lexus. They will let you go like Ford is doing around the country if they needed to. First of I am a Lexus supporter again, if not it wouldnt be in my driveway. Pump your brakes, Im sure you have ABS Lexus Grand Puba . This is not a debate for the biased, and no I dont want to start a revolt thats ridiculous and Im offended. Better belive I wont suggest anyone buy from Maryland (Rockville) but I highly recommend Lexus as a car company as a whole. Im just pointing out what you dont want me to so relax nobody will change there love for lexus because of me. Check this Master Rockville I am a member of clulexus for a reason, I want to be. I own a # of companies and work for nobody so dont belive I'll be intimidated by you or any other car dealer or salesman, I am an American citizen so its my right to say what I say and yours,but your trying to make me out to be Malcom X before he went to Mecca and thought all whites were devils. I in no way want to hurt you or Lexus' business. I thought you guys listened to the consumer and how they felt. This is what Benz has over you guys, I never had a disagreement with any luxury brand except Lexus. You guys are like the athletes who go from high school to the pros to quick and dont remember its the fans who pay your salary. Remeber the Roman Empire from our history books, GONE and so can your company with the right person speaking against it. Find out who peolpe are first before you speak so bold. You are going to make me do what you said with your sarcasim. I wont though, there are some Great Lexus employees and owners out there and I support and want there success. This is what you guys do, not just Lexus, Benz and BMW did it to you when I was debating between the three car companies to pick from. How about being humble and if you are that confident in the Lexus product, let it show in there actions (Sales). I am but one man not 40 or fifty. I only want to keep the car company I purchased 6 cars from honest. My comments werent meant to attack you Rockville or your nameplate. I had no idea it was taken that far with you or anyone else. Cocky Cocky Cocky is all I have to say. Dont mention my name again Rockville, you dont know me and I dont know you and dont want to. Keep my name of your keys Master Rockville. Im sorry Im not being a good boy Sir but, your company is pulling a JEDI MIND trick and your afraid I opened PANDORA'S BOX making the consumer think. I know money and money value, and how for the first time since the depression the savings rate is below 0%, please. Im not new to this Im true to this. WISDOM!!!!! You know that all car companies have flaws and yours has less right know. I know some who have had problems with there lexus and fix it and dont report it. I have plenty of times. Do those stats account for that. The best isnt just being problem free its everything not just J.D Power surveys, its also being understanding and trying to fix what is wrong. Not being critical of the consumer and making them out to be the enemy when they praise your product and battle Benz owners and turn new car buyers on to your company, which I have plenty of times(is that someone who wants a revolt?). I only am critical on clublexus not anywere else but now I wonder why Im being loyal when its so easy for you guys that sell these cars to show your true feelings about the customer. when were critical you hate us and were angry, Im not even angry now Im offended you made the comment of me trying to get people to revolt, when we ask questions you hate us. When we just buy and say noting thats how you want it, man on the Benz site they trash you(Lexus,BMW) and vice versa on BMW's site. I thought Lexus had more class than that. Again how many times must I say I am a Lexus owner and supporter. Anyone reading this should take heed of this, example of what I found out after getting a chance to go to Manheim myself(friend is a car dealer) keep the consumer dumb . If your smart you would ignore my comments, not draw attention to them your making this into a debate and I never wanted one and dont now. And Benz treats people better here (Norfolk/Va Beach) than Lexus here so maybe thats why I see things the way I do. And when I did buy from your state the salesman and general manager lied constantly (Darcars) dont say it its not your dealership .GOD IS GOOD!!

encore888

Usermel, I'm sorry for the bad experiences you've had with Lexus. I can see why you would feel that Lexus in general is not what it used to be.

I have tried to point out in this thread how generalizing Lexus to Mercedes and BMW's experiences may not necessarily be accurate. We have to wait and see

Right now the rise in prices for Lexus has come in accordance with a rise in amenities for Lexus cars, which are now top-of-class more than ever. There is also evidence that Lexus cars have improved in quality in several areas.

There was a 'dark period' up to recently, but it is my opinion and hope that that has changed. Despite being still #1, Lexus knows that it has to improve dealership service and quality to stay at the top. That is why they have recently launched a dealership service improvement program, and other initiatives. Sales, however, may not be affected--although it is still rated well. I know because I have taken my business from a Lexus dealership which was rather poor in sales service, to another which was excellent.

I would like to point out this article: http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/040601.html
in which it is stated that any cost-savings achieved on the New ES 350 are not saved for Lexus, they are put back into the car to improve other amenities. Lexus is still serious about quality.

At the same time, Lexus cars have moved up in price, yet still straddle the value gap, in order to reflect the increased prestige of the car. And yes, they do get more profit--the whole luxury division is a high-margin business to begin with. Greedy? Perhaps--but it goes with the territory and it reflects the prestige of the car as argued here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus (future of Lexus section).

I think that being biased towards Lexus (as in new pricing reflects good) can be contrasted with being biased against Lexus (as in new pricing reflects bad). I think we should all wait and see whether the market and the consumers feel Lexus is doing the right thing.

usermel

...Its these guys who are biased and even Stevie Wonder can see tha,t I cant understand. He works for Lexus, what about taking me and others into account. Remember, most here are car heads. Like Dead Heads are to the Grateful Dead. Most consumers dont join car clubs so most that would be critical like me arent even members. Hence is why I'm the minority and get jumped on. I didnt decide to be critical one day, I noticed it from observing. Again people point out Benz and BMW's prices being high and rising, again I said in an earlier post they are traditional in that way of pricing, thats how Lexus stole there business quality for the dollar. Measure options on the car, not base price, again a base LS is what they are selling the its cheaper thing on, put the same items in the car and you'll see the gap closing. 20 years from now they will be the same price, watch. Why? You guys are saying its O.K, saying there going up in price and I dont like is not anti-consumer, its hay guys did you notice this, thats it. In no way do I want people not to buy Lexus'. Also the Benz company uses better parts and more expensive, dont take my word for it research it. HELLO dont we see Lexus being just like them and no different. Thats what made Lexus, and why it was and is successful. I dont want people to stop buying Lexus', I love there cars im just bringing up someting I noticed. Again its like the humble singer who becomes Rick James (no disrespect). I got support now I dont care they still will buy my product . Rockville knows if enough do say we dont like the price going up Lexus will listen. Price goes up, salesman make more, and hay I want them to make there money but I seen the markup on these Japanese makes comnpared to the German models. It cost more to make a Benz and the other German models than the Japanese brands (hint: Hyndai,10 year 100,000 mile warranty. Have you guys wondered why Japanese makes are cheaper(think). Pandora's Box baby and they know it. So a Lexus going up in price is a greater increase of profit compared to the German model. What is the yen worth compared to a Euro tell me. Hello do the math. Its your money not mine. Il'l go to Acura, now people will trash me for saying that(I already see the post "GO USERMEL WE DONT NEED YOU) like Benz peolpe were saying about Lexus, people back in1990 for going to Lexus same principal but now you guys have become like those you once were critical of for being critical of you., I know what you might be thinking, a Acura isnt on the level of a Leuxus. Thats the same thing they said about the Lexus compared to the Benz between 1990-2005 and still say. I am a supporter of quality for money value and loyalty. Is loyalty $5,000 more because the body style changed. The only ones getting over arent just the oil companies people. GOD IS GOOD ALL THE TIME.

usermel

I agree with you Enigma we will see. I dont want to be right bro. Yeah all this added amenity stuff is boring me. Is that saying they havent put enough in there cars until they convinced us they were cheaper and a better value when they will one day no longer be. I believe in being fair so I'll take your advice and wait. GOD IS GOOD.

Ice350

iTrader: (1)

Hey, you guys need to chill. This debate is going too far off into no mans land.

LexFather

I agree. Lets get back on topic

usermel

Future models said what I wasnt probably communicating. The cars are cheaper is why most not all came to Lexus. Not because we cant afford more of a higher price but we dont want to spend as much as Benz buyers. This is exactly what I meant by I loved Lexus for not being like Benz, mayber others always felt like Lexus was not on Benz and Bmw's level, and now are feeling more like there getting close to having a car that is on the level of the power 2. Again Im saying to you guys what the wikipedia article states it will work here but hasnt fully in Europe beacuse of what Lexus is, the smart consumers car. European and American buyers who are loyal to Benz and Jag and BMW are typically high status peole who believe high price is better I believe Quality,cost and reliabilty is the best and I thought you guys felt the same.I didnt buy a poor mans Benz, I bought a Lexus and am proud. When they go up in price full fledge we will see what my point is, it will happen trust me, thats what Lexus was trying to get to from day one.Benz and BMW know this and are layghing at us consumers because they know the true intent of Lexus.Again I want to keep buying these cars, but when Lexus becomes just like Benz and BMW Im done if I wanted a Benz I would buy one. Bad enough they even copy the body style of Benz a dead giveaway. They cant sell this to the Europeans as mush though they sell some becaus ethe Euro's are more srtict on there choice of Luxury cars and thats why also they tried it in America before they did in Japan before Amercica. Imagine if Ford didnt start hereor General Motors cars. I told yall to be supportive of the consumner not to hate on anyone but point out this issue. Most of you will remain close minded, but go to England and tell me how many Lexus' you see as compared to German brands. Its not just tradition its a matter of the Benz using more pricey parts. I owned the S and ML modles and can tell you they had no issues with fit and finish and interior and exterior quality. The problem I had with Benz was electical problems, nothing mechanical. As a matter of fact all my times at the Benz dealer was because of the electical problems the Germans had in building the Benz trying to keep up with the Japanese brands (Infinti,Acura and Lexus). All love for Lexus just want you guys to see Jesus didnt build this car. GOD IS GOOD ALL THE TIME.

usermel

O.k I will no problem with that just let me say Im not mad at all its these cmpany guys who never want tyhe consumer to have an opinion other than what they want you to towards there product. Im cool I love Lexus cars and this site (clublexus) and want no bad blood. So I wont comment on Rockville again.GOD IS GOOD ALL THE TIME!

LexFather

Alright well a couple things here.
1. When u enter a new market, you BETTER price below the competiton. Lexus did that in 1989. If you look today, there are rampant accusations that China made goods are all sold here underpriced, b/c of their rate exchange.
2. Lexus offered similar or MORE car for the money. It wasn't just cheaper cars. We are talking about outside of M/AMG, Lexus cars go toe to toe with the Germans. The other Japanese car makers can't say that.
3. Everyone's prices have gone up. Its not just Lexus. All luxury brands went up in price. Even non luxury cars, Camry's, Accords, Altimas, Passats, Avalons can get in the 30k+ range.
4. Lexus has established its a TRUE TIER 1 luxury brand. THe Japanese competiton cannot come close to making this statement, as they make moves that are not one a luxury brand makes. Lexus fought incredibly hard for this position, and doesn't want to risk losing it by selling I-4 cars, sub 30k cars, etc. It simply DESTROYS your luxury credibility. Mercedes experienced with with the C230 hatchback which is now discontinued. BMW did with the 318ti hatchback and won't import the 1 series to America.
5. As people get older, their revenue increases. Brands want to keep customers IN THEIR BRAND. All companies PRAY, from the age of 10 to 90, that person STAYS with the brand.
For instance for Lexus
young 20s-IS
mid 30s-IS/GS
40s/50s/-GS/LS/SC

You want to move up and keep your market.


I think keeping the IS at 31k to start and the new ES at 33k to start is fine for a luxury brand. There are TONS of great cars out there below that price. Why have a 25k Lexus, when there are MULTIPLE 25k Toyotas?


We can keep the discussion, just no personal attacks. Just my 2 cents

usermel

...Sicklex and will do so again I like the clublexus site and Lexus cars. And am happy to be part of the site. GOD IS GOOD ALL THE TIME.

bizzy928

Usermel, this is a bit offtopic but can you format your posts a little better. Its a bit hard to read when the text is all clumped like that. Use some spaces between lines etc. Thanks!

HKGS300

Easiest way to entering a new market is lower price. I agree. But on the cheap made China stuff i don't fully agree on the unfair competition which is the general opinion. The companies that are really making the profits are the US buyers, i have seen them in action, profit margins in China are very low, 5 - 10% is not unusual. Which manufacturer in the US or Europe would accept that?

Lexus/Toyota products are built on PROVEN parts/technologies, which is why the cars are so reliable and yet relatively cheap to build.

IMO one of the reason for Lexus success in the US is their focus on the US market. Other Luxury brands (MB, BMW, Audi, ...) are doing much better in Europe and Asia, but customer requirements in these markets are different.

Lexus is now getting very agressive and is introducing many different models, and i fear they may lose (some) focus.

That statement is valid for the US market. However, in Europe customers accept lowerpriced MB and BMW. Also, MB and BMW do not have a choice. In order to stay a keyplayer they need to sell volumes.

At the moment Lexus is still not the best Luxury Brand in the World. However, it is considered as the Best Luxury Brand in the US, and that is not a bad achievement.


Fully agree. Toyota / Lexus has been traditionally very strong in keeping their customers.

LexFather

HKGS300, great points. I was referring to the US market. Clearly, Europe/Asia is different. As you stated in Europe, small cars and fuel economy does sell in the luxury car range. Lexus learned very hard by not offering a diesal until the new IS 220. Clearly there are A/B class Benzes, 1 series BMWs, A2s and A3s and TONS of I-4 options.