How many Car-Based SUV's / Minivans/ Crossovers is Enough?
05-21-06, 09:55 AM
#1
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
How many Car-Based SUV's / Minivans/ Crossovers is Enough?
I'd like to pose a question for all you CL think-tankers. Given the tremendous expansion of taller, car-based unibody vehicles on the market in the last 5-10 years, most ( but not all ) of them with center differentials and on-demand AWD or full-time AWD that can be used on any surface...and, of course, even more being introduced as we speak, how much is enough?........or are we already at that point?
In the fall of 1980, the old Amercan Motors Corporation, by then a subsidary of Chrysler and Renault, introduced, as a 1981 model, a revolutionary vehicle ( and I remember it well ) that, in many ways, was a good 15 years before its time. It was essentially a raised Hornet / Concord wagon ( later sedan and Gremlin-based Eagle SX4 models as well ) that pioneered the idea of a sedan body, chassis, and steering mechanisms for sedan-like driving characteristics, higher ground clearance for mud and snow, civilized on-road manners, and, of course, all-weather capability.....the combination of which had never been seen before in the American market. Eagles, like many old AMC products, had woefully poor assembly quality and fit-and-finish problems by modern standards, and basically came off the assembly line looking ( and feeling ) like they were only half-assembled, which in many cases was true. But there was no denying the uniqueness and usefulness of the viscous-fluid center differentials these vehicles introduced, which, for the first time, made all-wheel traction available without the off-pavement limitations and the transfer-case shifting problems of the then-almost-universal part-time 4WD systems in the pickup trucks and SUV's of the time.
At the same time, of course, efficient car-based AWD systems were being developed and introduced by Audi with its famous Quattro system in Europe and by Subaru in Japan. In the cowboy-off-road pickup-image-crazed auto market and society of the time, these vehicles received a fair amount of attention in the auto press but little in the way of sales.....but BOY, was that going to change a decade later.
The SUV and pickup-truck explosion of the early 1990's was fueled primarily by the F-150, Silverado, and truck-based Explorer and Grand Cherokee SUV's, with the Chevy Blazer in a distant third. But by then many customers were getting tired of the ponderous steering, bouncy rides, and voracious fuel appetite of these type of vehicle as the price for all-weather capability. Off-roading and heavy towing ( something that unibodies are generally not good at ) was starting tobe replaced by suburban shopping and commuting. Customers, of course, by then wanted the best of both worlds, so the obvious solution was to turn back the clock to the Eagle and the early Audi Quattros, adopt itheir technology in by what by now was an updated form with not only viscous center-differentials but electronic center-clutch packs as well and the new rack-and-pinion steering for agility, and soon we started to see vehicles like Subaru's Outback and Forester, Toyota's RAV4, Honda's CRV, and on and on.
Which brings us to the situation we have today. Have we reached a point where the market has become saturated with these vehicles? Look at all the different auto companies where you have these vehicles all competing not only against other firms but against each other as well.....and their own corporate twins.........Hyundai's Santa Fe / Tuscon, Toyota's RAV4 / AWD Matrix / Highlander / Sequoia, Honda's Pilot / CRV, Mitsubishi's Outlander / Endeavor, Pontiac's Vibe / now-discontinued Aztek ( despite its ugliness ), and now perhaps the oddest situation of all....Mazda, a company that stresses the " Zoom-Zoom " sporty driving characteristics of its vehicles, having 3 of these car / SUV / minivan crossovers.....the Mazda5, Escape, and the new CX-7. Nissan, of course, has the Murano......but its brother Pathfinder, bucking the general trend, has actually gone the other way in the last redesign....from a unibody SUV to a body-on-frame truck-based one.
In the fall of 1980, the old Amercan Motors Corporation, by then a subsidary of Chrysler and Renault, introduced, as a 1981 model, a revolutionary vehicle ( and I remember it well ) that, in many ways, was a good 15 years before its time. It was essentially a raised Hornet / Concord wagon ( later sedan and Gremlin-based Eagle SX4 models as well ) that pioneered the idea of a sedan body, chassis, and steering mechanisms for sedan-like driving characteristics, higher ground clearance for mud and snow, civilized on-road manners, and, of course, all-weather capability.....the combination of which had never been seen before in the American market. Eagles, like many old AMC products, had woefully poor assembly quality and fit-and-finish problems by modern standards, and basically came off the assembly line looking ( and feeling ) like they were only half-assembled, which in many cases was true. But there was no denying the uniqueness and usefulness of the viscous-fluid center differentials these vehicles introduced, which, for the first time, made all-wheel traction available without the off-pavement limitations and the transfer-case shifting problems of the then-almost-universal part-time 4WD systems in the pickup trucks and SUV's of the time.
At the same time, of course, efficient car-based AWD systems were being developed and introduced by Audi with its famous Quattro system in Europe and by Subaru in Japan. In the cowboy-off-road pickup-image-crazed auto market and society of the time, these vehicles received a fair amount of attention in the auto press but little in the way of sales.....but BOY, was that going to change a decade later.
The SUV and pickup-truck explosion of the early 1990's was fueled primarily by the F-150, Silverado, and truck-based Explorer and Grand Cherokee SUV's, with the Chevy Blazer in a distant third. But by then many customers were getting tired of the ponderous steering, bouncy rides, and voracious fuel appetite of these type of vehicle as the price for all-weather capability. Off-roading and heavy towing ( something that unibodies are generally not good at ) was starting tobe replaced by suburban shopping and commuting. Customers, of course, by then wanted the best of both worlds, so the obvious solution was to turn back the clock to the Eagle and the early Audi Quattros, adopt itheir technology in by what by now was an updated form with not only viscous center-differentials but electronic center-clutch packs as well and the new rack-and-pinion steering for agility, and soon we started to see vehicles like Subaru's Outback and Forester, Toyota's RAV4, Honda's CRV, and on and on.
Which brings us to the situation we have today. Have we reached a point where the market has become saturated with these vehicles? Look at all the different auto companies where you have these vehicles all competing not only against other firms but against each other as well.....and their own corporate twins.........Hyundai's Santa Fe / Tuscon, Toyota's RAV4 / AWD Matrix / Highlander / Sequoia, Honda's Pilot / CRV, Mitsubishi's Outlander / Endeavor, Pontiac's Vibe / now-discontinued Aztek ( despite its ugliness ), and now perhaps the oddest situation of all....Mazda, a company that stresses the " Zoom-Zoom " sporty driving characteristics of its vehicles, having 3 of these car / SUV / minivan crossovers.....the Mazda5, Escape, and the new CX-7. Nissan, of course, has the Murano......but its brother Pathfinder, bucking the general trend, has actually gone the other way in the last redesign....from a unibody SUV to a body-on-frame truck-based one.
Last edited by mmarshall; 05-21-06 at 10:07 AM.
05-21-06, 10:01 AM
#2
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by mmarshall
I'd like to pose a question for all you CL think-tankers. Given the tremendous expansion of taller, car-based unibody vehicles on the market in the last 5-10 years, most ( but not all ) of them with center differentials and on-demand AWD or full-time AWD that can be used on any surface...and, of course, even more being introduced as we speak, how much is enough?........or are we already at that point?
In the fall of 1980, the old Amercan Motors Corporation, by then a subsidary of Chrysler and Renault, introduced, as a 1981 model, a revolutionary vehicle ( and I remember it well ) that, in many ways, was a good 15 years before its time. It was essentially a raised Hornet / Concord wagon ( later sedan and Gremlin-based Eagle SX4 models as well ) that pioneered the idea of a sedan body, chassis, and steering mechanisms for sedan-like driving characteristics, higher ground clearance for mud and snow, civilized on-road manners, and, of course, all-weather capability.....the combination of which had never been seen before in the American market. Eagles, like many old AMC products, had woefully poor assembly quality and fit-and-finish problems by modern standards, and basically came off the asembly line looking ( and feeling ) like they were only half-assembled, which in many cases was true. But there was no denying the uniqueness and usefulness of the viscous-fluid center differentials these vehicles introduced, which, for the first time, made all-wheel traction available without the off-pavement limitations and the transfer-case shifting problems of the then-almost-universal part-time 4WD systems in the pickup trucks and SUV's of the time.
At the same time, of course, efficient car-based AWD systems were being developed and introduced by Audi with its famous Quattro system in Europe and by Subaru in Japan. In the cowboy-off-road pickup-image-crazed auto market and society of the time, these vehicles received a fair amount of attention in the auto press but little in the way of sales.....but BOY, was that going to change a decade later.
The SUV and pickup-truck explosion of the early 1990's was fueled primarily by the F-150, Silverado, and truck-based Explorer and Grand Cherokee SUV's, with the Chevy Blazer in a distant third. But by then many customers were getting tired of the ponderous steering, bouncy rides, and voracious fuel appetite of these type of vehicle as the price for all-weather capability. Of-roading and heavy towing ( something that unibodies are generally not good at ) was starting tobe replaced by suburban shopping and commuting. Customers, of course, by then wanted the best of both worlds, so the obvious solution was to turn back the clock to the Eagle and the early Audi Quattros, adopt itheir technology in by what by now was an updated form with not only viscous center-differentials but electronic center-clutch packs as well and the new rack-and-pinion steering for agility, and soon we started to see vhhicles like Subaru's Outback and Forester, Toyota's RAV4, Honda's CRV, and on and on.
Which brings us to the situation we have today. Have we reached a point where the market has become saturated with these vehicles?
In the fall of 1980, the old Amercan Motors Corporation, by then a subsidary of Chrysler and Renault, introduced, as a 1981 model, a revolutionary vehicle ( and I remember it well ) that, in many ways, was a good 15 years before its time. It was essentially a raised Hornet / Concord wagon ( later sedan and Gremlin-based Eagle SX4 models as well ) that pioneered the idea of a sedan body, chassis, and steering mechanisms for sedan-like driving characteristics, higher ground clearance for mud and snow, civilized on-road manners, and, of course, all-weather capability.....the combination of which had never been seen before in the American market. Eagles, like many old AMC products, had woefully poor assembly quality and fit-and-finish problems by modern standards, and basically came off the asembly line looking ( and feeling ) like they were only half-assembled, which in many cases was true. But there was no denying the uniqueness and usefulness of the viscous-fluid center differentials these vehicles introduced, which, for the first time, made all-wheel traction available without the off-pavement limitations and the transfer-case shifting problems of the then-almost-universal part-time 4WD systems in the pickup trucks and SUV's of the time.
At the same time, of course, efficient car-based AWD systems were being developed and introduced by Audi with its famous Quattro system in Europe and by Subaru in Japan. In the cowboy-off-road pickup-image-crazed auto market and society of the time, these vehicles received a fair amount of attention in the auto press but little in the way of sales.....but BOY, was that going to change a decade later.
The SUV and pickup-truck explosion of the early 1990's was fueled primarily by the F-150, Silverado, and truck-based Explorer and Grand Cherokee SUV's, with the Chevy Blazer in a distant third. But by then many customers were getting tired of the ponderous steering, bouncy rides, and voracious fuel appetite of these type of vehicle as the price for all-weather capability. Of-roading and heavy towing ( something that unibodies are generally not good at ) was starting tobe replaced by suburban shopping and commuting. Customers, of course, by then wanted the best of both worlds, so the obvious solution was to turn back the clock to the Eagle and the early Audi Quattros, adopt itheir technology in by what by now was an updated form with not only viscous center-differentials but electronic center-clutch packs as well and the new rack-and-pinion steering for agility, and soon we started to see vhhicles like Subaru's Outback and Forester, Toyota's RAV4, Honda's CRV, and on and on.
Which brings us to the situation we have today. Have we reached a point where the market has become saturated with these vehicles?
Good thread. I think there are enough but it seems people want the versatility of these vehicles and the SUV craze is not stopping. Image is a problem, people just think they are "cooler" than wagons. Also, they do blend many features well, a car like drive with the height of small SUV and more space inside.
Car makers seem to be turning these out like made, even luxury car makers have caught on.
05-21-06, 10:02 AM
#3
Guest
Posts: n/a
Let me add, that I think they are fine as family vehicles and utility vehicles but the minute car makers try to turn them sporty, that is when I think they become really stupid and you should really buy a wagon instead.
I just don't get tall trying to be sporty wagons/vans/SUVs.
Its like putting Nike running shoes on a bear. Retarded. (and for some sick reason, I do like the Cayenne)
I just don't get tall trying to be sporty wagons/vans/SUVs.
Its like putting Nike running shoes on a bear. Retarded. (and for some sick reason, I do like the Cayenne)
05-21-06, 10:15 AM
#4
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
I don't want to sound like I am talikng out of both sides of my mouth here, either, or that I am criticizing this type of vehicle design. On the contrary, I think that for many drivers it is the best overall type of vehicle on the market.....I myself was so impressed with Subaru's 2005-2006 Outback I bought one myself, primarily because it offers sedan-like driving characteristics with AWD capability better than any other vehicle under $40,000.....though the Ford Freestyle comes close. The Audi All-Road and Volvo XC-70 also fill this dual-function well but IMO are simply too expensive.....and the VW Passat AWD 4-Motion sedans and wagons, loaded, are pushing $40,000 now.
Ths gist of my point, though, is have we reached a point where too many of these multi-function vehicles are being introduced....to the point where they are competing against their own corporate brothers rather than those of other firms?
Ths gist of my point, though, is have we reached a point where too many of these multi-function vehicles are being introduced....to the point where they are competing against their own corporate brothers rather than those of other firms?
05-21-06, 10:15 AM
#5
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by mmarshall
I don't want to sound like I am talikng out of both sides of my mouth here, either, or that I am criticizing this type of vehicle design. On the contrary, I think that for many drivers it is the best overall type of vehicle on the market.....I myself was so impressed with Subaru's 2005-2006 Outback I bought one myself, primarily because it offers sedan-like driving characteristics with AWD capability better than any other vehicle under $40,000.....though the Ford Freestyle comes close. The Audi All-Road and Volvo XC-70 also fill this dual-function well but IMO are simply too expensive.....and the VW Passat AWD 4-Motion sedans and wagons, loaded, are pushing $0,000 now.
lmao
It is correct now...as is my first one, the thread opener..
05-21-06, 10:24 AM
#7
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
HAHAHAHAH, I was thinking, "hell I drive a RX and you drive an Outback".
lmao
lmao
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05-21-06, 11:43 AM
#8
Lexus Champion
I think car companies realize the wave of popularity if the SUV is over once gas prices have
soared beyond most peoples budgets and created a market of cars which will soften the blow
of going back to minivans.
Once gas prices reaches $4 plus/gallon, many Americans are going to dump their 10-15mpg
trucks and SUV for cars with much more reasonable mileage, but without sacrificing too much
of the benefits. Lots of seating and cargo room.
People thought the SUV market would be saturated with every car company coming out with
their own models. Obviously there was enough room for every to make a lot of money while
consumer demand remained strong.
I think the market for the crossover vehicles will get crowded very quickly and they will not
be quite as popular as car companies had wished for. They still isn't the 'cool' or 'smart' factors yet
which I think is very important to car sales.
For the most part these crossover vehicles are car-like minivans. R Class, Pacifica, etc....yawn.....
soared beyond most peoples budgets and created a market of cars which will soften the blow
of going back to minivans.
Once gas prices reaches $4 plus/gallon, many Americans are going to dump their 10-15mpg
trucks and SUV for cars with much more reasonable mileage, but without sacrificing too much
of the benefits. Lots of seating and cargo room.
People thought the SUV market would be saturated with every car company coming out with
their own models. Obviously there was enough room for every to make a lot of money while
consumer demand remained strong.
I think the market for the crossover vehicles will get crowded very quickly and they will not
be quite as popular as car companies had wished for. They still isn't the 'cool' or 'smart' factors yet
which I think is very important to car sales.
For the most part these crossover vehicles are car-like minivans. R Class, Pacifica, etc....yawn.....
05-21-06, 08:57 PM
#9
Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
Let me add, that I think they are fine as family vehicles and utility vehicles but the minute car makers try to turn them sporty, that is when I think they become really stupid and you should really buy a wagon instead.
I just don't get tall trying to be sporty wagons/vans/SUVs.
Its like putting Nike running shoes on a bear. Retarded. (and for some sick reason, I do like the Cayenne)
I just don't get tall trying to be sporty wagons/vans/SUVs.
Its like putting Nike running shoes on a bear. Retarded. (and for some sick reason, I do like the Cayenne)
I think they're are an awful lot of them out there but people keep buying them. I just wish people knew how to handle them. Switching from soccer mom minivan to soccer mom Suburban is not the same type of driving. Same thing from when I switched from a I4 fwd to a V8 rwd. I have to drive those two cars completely different.
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