Car Chat General discussion about Lexus, other auto manufacturers and automotive news.

Automobile Mag: 1. E63, 2. S6, 3. M5 (Full Text pg. 2)

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 06-17-06, 03:44 PM
  #16  
LexFather
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Originally Posted by LexArazzo
The previous M5 won the vast majority of the comparisons with the current E55 amg despite being much less powerful & slower.
I know this is the E63 amg which is not out yet(here anyway), but is the E63 that much better than the E55 ? The new M5 is definately better in performance than the previous M5.
Always a lot of subjectivity in these rankings anyway . . .
The previous M5 to my memory lost only 1 comparo, to a RS6 in Car and Driver. Otehwise, even with less power, it was whooping EVERYONE, EVERYTIME.

In EVO and CAR, they thought it was perfect.

The new one comes and there is an article I have in Top Gear where they are amazed by the power but compared to the last one, is just missing the magic.

The new M5 has not fared 1/2 as well in comparos, and the competiton is getting better.
 
Old 06-17-06, 03:45 PM
  #17  
marshmallo
Lexus Champion
 
marshmallo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MA
Posts: 2,184
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

E63 rulez

If it can run for more than 10 blocks
marshmallo is offline  
Old 06-17-06, 03:47 PM
  #18  
LexFather
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...&highlight=e63

Back in April, I started a thread saying the E63= the ****. I love it.

Subconciously, I think "looks" are playing a role in these comparos. Whereas the old M5 in most people's opinions is PERFECT, the new M5 is "different". The E class is just a gorgous car and with the AMG treatment, incredible.

I saw the S6 at the auto show and it just didn't grab me. they should have went more overboard to say "hey V-10 in here".
 
Old 06-17-06, 04:00 PM
  #19  
marshmallo
Lexus Champion
 
marshmallo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MA
Posts: 2,184
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...&highlight=e63

Back in April, I started a thread saying the E63= the ****. I love it.

Subconciously, I think "looks" are playing a role in these comparos. Whereas the old M5 in most people's opinions is PERFECT, the new M5 is "different". The E class is just a gorgous car and with the AMG treatment, incredible.

I saw the S6 at the auto show and it just didn't grab me. they should have went more overboard to say "hey V-10 in here".
"Looks" are playing a role without a doubt. The E63 is aggressive AND
stylish. Plus, it is luxurious and refined. Best interior by far.

The only question mark is that the E Class continues to be a flaming disaster
in terms of quality.
marshmallo is offline  
Old 06-17-06, 08:34 PM
  #20  
doug_999
Lexus Champion
 
doug_999's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: IL
Posts: 2,854
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

I think my point here is that I read these magazines and I expect them to be from the enthusiast point of view and to have at least SOME ranking to them. If the M5 lost because of the SMG and it being a terrible daily driver (something I tend to agree with BTW), then so be it. But I am shocked that this mag does no real testing and just sort of drives around and says "we like this best cause it rides better and we are told it is faster/slower" then I call bull. Give me some specs please and put some meaning behind the rankings. I dunno, maybe the engineer in me calling bull. Persionally I want the S6 with the E63 engine and the M5 driving dynamics
doug_999 is offline  
Old 06-17-06, 08:51 PM
  #21  
rsantiago
Pole Position
 
rsantiago's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Carson, California currently in Makati City, PI
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by marshmallo
"Looks" are playing a role without a doubt. The E63 is aggressive AND
stylish. Plus, it is luxurious and refined. Best interior by far.

The only question mark is that the E Class continues to be a flaming disaster
in terms of quality.
Only time will tell to see if Mercerdes definately gets their act together.
rsantiago is offline  
Old 07-06-06, 03:39 PM
  #22  
GFerg
Speaks French in Russian

Thread Starter
 
GFerg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: What is G?
Posts: 13,283
Received 64 Likes on 49 Posts
Default Full Text Version













By Georg Kacher
Photography: Charlie Magee

A big engine in a mid-size car-it's been proven to make our glands swell and our mouths water at least since Pontiac stuffed a 389-cubic-inch V-8 into the 1964 Tempest. Today, the German premium brands are its most fervent practitioners, putting tarmac-peeling power into almost-stock-appearing, mid-size sedans. This summer, two newcomers, the V-10-engined Audi S6 and the Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG, will attempt to dethrone the current four-door king of the fast lane, BMW's awesome M5.

To challenge the M5's V-10, the S6 packs a V-10 of its own, but the Audi is able to extract only 435 hp, compared with 500 hp for the BMW. The S6 acquits itself better in the torque department, besting the M5's 384 lb-ft by 14 lb-ft. Mercedes comes the most prepared, at least on paper, with a normally aspirated, 6.2-liter V-8 that delivers a massive 507 hp along with 465 lb-ft of torque.


On the road, these differences in power and torque are less obvious than expected. After all, it's not only the numeric potential that matters but also what you can do with it. According to their manufacturers, the E63 can storm from 0 to 60 mph in 4.3 seconds, and the S6 performs the act in a less explosive 5.1 seconds. Our test results for the M5 put it right in between at 4.7 seconds. Of course, in the wet, the all-wheel-drive Audi wins the stoplight grand prix without even trying. On the autobahn, all three cars will beat the train and challenge the plane. Although the E63's maximum velocity is governed at 155 mph, AMG will reset the limiter to 186 mph if the customer pays big bucks for the 0-3-0 option [see page 88]. The downside of leadfooting these beasts is a drastically reduced range and dramatically higher fuel bills. The M5 suffers more than the rest, because drivers invariably operate it in manual mode, and because it takes all 500 hp and the quickest shift setting to deliver the goods.


Visual judgments are more subjective. If you lean toward understatement, you may feel a little uncomfortable in the E63, which is dressed to kill. Its front spoiler was obviously designed to suck in air rather than to divert it, the small rear air deflector produces plenty of much-needed downforce, and the tapered sills help smooth the airflow before it reaches the razor-sharp rear apron. The two-tone, polished aluminum wheels are shod with eighteen-inch Bridgestone Potenza RE050 tires, 245/40 in the front and 265/35 out back.


Were it not for the aggressive-looking, five-LED running lights, the Audi would qualify for Performers Anonymous. The subtle visual modifications include a different grille treatment, four chrome exhaust pipes, slightly wider front fenders, flared lower door panels, and restyled nineteen-inch wheels fitted with Continental ContiSportContact 2 rubber (265/35 all around).

Although its visual impact was somewhat lessened in Europe by a look-alike sport package that is available for any ordinary 5-series, the M5 still stands out as one of the leastcontroversial BMWs designed under Chris Bangle. It's a chunky piece, with a wide, low stance that spells presence with a capital P. The nineteen-inch wheels wear Michelin Pilot Sport footwear, 255/40 up front and 285/35 at the rear.


Inside, the M5 is somewhat stark, albeit at a high level. In addition to the love-it-or-hate-it iDrive, the quickest sedan from the Bavarian Motor Works offers a bewildering selection of setups. First, you must decide whether to change gears manually or automatically. That's an easy choice: in auto, the seven-speed SMG gearbox is still either unacceptably jerky or unacceptably slow. Second, you have to choose between 400 and 500 hp. Why? God only knows, but we suspect the engine always starts in four-fifths mode to curb its fuel consumption. Decisions three and four concern the shift speed (six to choose from) and the damper setting (three to choose from). What's next? Switch off stability control, or start fretting with iDrive? In total, there are twenty different settings that allow almost countless permutations. No, we didn't try them all. But we grew to like the combination of P500 (500 hp), M Dynamic Mode (heightened stability-control thresholds), EDC in normal damping mode, and S4 (fourth-fastest shift speed). You'll want to store your preferred mix and access it via the M button on the steering wheel.

The E63's owners' manual is as thick as the King James Bible, but mercifully, one can operate the car without it. The E63 still uses an older version of Mercedes' Comand system that lacks the central controller of the Comand in the latest S-class. So there are buttons galore. Like the face-lifted 2007 E-class, the E63 has received a much classier instrument panel, and the AMG's more supportive seats match the car's heady character. Aside from the new engine, the most significant change concerns the seven-speed manu-matic gearbox-with paddle shifters-in place of the departed five-speed. There are three shift modes: comfort (standard), sport (35 percent quicker), and manual (quicker yet). In manual mode, there is no kickdown and no automatic upshift. As before, the Airmatic suspension offers a choice of three different settings ranging from firm to compliant.


The cockpit of the S6 doesn't differ much from that in the A6. The leather sport seats, which strike a compelling balance between support and comfort, are the most welcome addition. We also like the supplemental digital speedometer and the top-grade materials. As far as fit and finish are concerned, this Audi is again more solid than the improved Mercedes and the comparatively drab BMW. Having said that, apart from the seats and the carbon-fiber trim, there is precious little radi- ating a sense of the occasion. Unlike the Mercedes, and other A6 models, the S6 isn't available with the desirable air suspension. Why? Because the engineers didn't want to add more weight to the already substantial 4486-pound total (versus 4160 for the M5 and 4035 for the E63), and because they felt that a coil-spring setup was more in line with the car's sporty character.


THE RANKINGS

THIRD PLACE BMW M5


A class master for many years, the BMW M5 has finally met its match. It's the M5's transmission that pushes the car down the rankings. SMG is wonderful for a track day, but it's a drag during the rest of the week. It's a shame, because the rest of the car is still dynamically spot-on. For instance, it's hard to imagine more communicative steering than the BMW's. The brakes also do a splendid job, although directional stability at very high speeds could be better and the ride comfort is acceptable only in comfort mode. As it happens, comfort mode provides the kind of suspension compliance that makes the car handle in a particularly creamy and predictable manner. At the limit, the M5 will instinctively attempt to oversteer. That's the good news. The bad news is that the car always goes through a phase of initial understeer before the tail commences its side step, so every extra square inch of tarmac helps, as does plenty of confidence.


So, the M5, at $81,895, comes in last, mostly due to SMG. Having said that, the six-speed manual transmission, which will be offered in the U.S. market later this year, may alter this ranking. But as it is, the ballsy BMW is too crude, too complicated, and too compromised to emerge as the best of this bunch.

SECOND PLACE AUDI A6

The S6-like its big brother, the S8-benefits from a charismatic engine. Rated at 435 hp, the V-10 with Italian DNA features direct fuel injection, four overhead camshafts, and an intake plenum with two unequal-volume lungs. Drop the hammer, and the S6 catapults itself into action, generating tidal waves of noise that sound so physical they might result in the car's flight path being lined with leafless trees and featherless birds. The gearbox programs are mapped much more closely together than those in the Benz, but manual mode further speeds up the gearchanges, and in the sport setting, the engine revs greedily to its 7000-rpm redline. Thanks to Quattro, traction is never an issue, and grip is magnetic. Torque is split 40/60 percent front to rear, but this rear-wheel bias is recalculated at the first hint of wheel spin. The Audi has the most riveting brakes, and its steering is reassuringly competent in managing the sometimes antagonistic propulsion and direction-changing duties.

2007 Audi S6 Front Left Wheel
We expected the S6 to be notably slower and less involving, with more androgynous handling qualities and less feedback overall. But we were wrong. Despite the near total absence of drama, its set of reflexes is complete. Quattro is a bonus not only in winter or when it rains: it also ties the car down well through dips and brows, makes carving the twisties much more relaxed, and always-always-puts the power down. Instead of bothering you with weight distribution or traction-control issues, the S6 simply goes where you point it. No, power oversteer is not easily induced, but when you whip all three cars through a wet corner, there is one clear winner. And at an estimated $75,000, the Audi is the most affordable supersedan.

FIRST PLACE MERCEDES-BENZ E63 AMG


What makes the E63 so special is the blend of its abilities. For a start, it's a particularly emotional machine-mean-looking, acoustically overwhelming, and very fast, yet it can be either velvety smooth or bondage brutal, whichever you wish. True, the stability-control warning light may flash in the wet at 125 mph, but you won't feel more than a tug or a kick, and then it's full urge again all the way to the 7200-rpm redline. Unlike the supercharged E55, which was so pumped up with hormones it could hardly accelerate in a straight line, the follow-up model is a lot more relaxed, more sure-footed, and quite a bit quicker. By a wafer-thin margin, the Benz has the most compelling engine. It wins the torque trophy and the acceleration medal, it sounds awesome, it's mated to a transmission that confines itself to only three shift programs, and its relentless push extends into the triple-digit speed zone. What this car needs to move even closer to perfection are brakes with extra staying power and steering that can do more than change direction.


Even under pressure, the nose of the E63 finds it easy to stay close to the apex. As a result, the driver is more inclined to light up the rear tires in crowd-stopping fashion. The trouble is that you can slide the Benz only with stability control off, so there is no intermediate safety net such as M Dynamic Mode in the M5 or traction control off in the S6. Unlike the BMW, which feels a little twitchy as it nears the limit of adhesion, the AMG hugs the tarmac. There is also less lift-off weight transfer, less acceleration squat, and less brake dive, and, despite the subdued body movements, you always know where you are on the speed and g-force map.

At an expected $85,000, the Benz digs deepest into the budget, but it is worth every penny-against the stopwatch and in smiles-per-miles currency. It wins on merit and appeal, even though it surpasses the S6 only by a whisker.


The fact that the M5 has fallen so far so fast tells you three things: That this is an extremely fast-moving business. That even a well-founded status quo can be eroded by clever evolution. And that the big-engine-in-a-mid-size-car game is more competitive than ever.
GFerg is offline  
Old 07-07-06, 07:51 AM
  #23  
TXSTYLE
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
 
TXSTYLE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The GYM!
Posts: 8,270
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Not surprising.

I knew Benz would retaliate properly. The E63 has raised the bar in the "Super Sedan" market unquestionably.
TXSTYLE is offline  
Old 07-07-06, 09:02 AM
  #24  
mmarshall
Lexus Fanatic
 
mmarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Posts: 91,097
Received 87 Likes on 86 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by doug_999
IGive me some specs please and put some meaning behind the rankings. I dunno, maybe the engineer in me calling bull.
I'm not necessarily going to defend the magazine's practice here ( and if you have a complaint I'm sure Jean Jennings, the editor-in-chief, would want to know. Give her an E-Mail or write a Letter to ther Editor ). But, as an engineer, I'm sure you know that figures alone sometimes don't mean a whole lot. A whole lot of things can affect vehicle test results....air temperature, humidity, pressure, density, tires, road surface and condition, driver weight, vehicle weight, weight of the test equipment in the car, etc..... And sometimes the engines are too new to red-line them.

To give an example, take the identical car with the same driver and the same otherwise identical conditions, and you will propably get a markedly different set of test figures in July than you will in January.
mmarshall is offline  
Old 07-07-06, 09:28 AM
  #25  
bmgs400
Lexus Champion
 
bmgs400's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by INHOCJP
Wow, that S6 looks great. I wasn't a fan of the big grill on the A6 at first, but it's slowly grown on me.
Take off the license plate and you'll be reminded of just how hideous the front end (grill included) is on the new Audi's. I can't get buy it...reminds me of a tractor or 1930's car.
bmgs400 is offline  
Old 07-07-06, 09:48 AM
  #26  
mmarshall
Lexus Fanatic
 
mmarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Posts: 91,097
Received 87 Likes on 86 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by bmgs400
Take off the license plate and you'll be reminded of just how hideous the front end (grill included) is on the new Audi's. I can't get buy it...reminds me of a tractor or 1930's car.
Yes. That is EXACTLY the reason WHY Audi is using those awful new Debbie-does-Dallas grilles.
They are meant to bring back the memory of the 1930's-vintage rear-engine Auto-Union racing cars with the big grilles. That's where the Audi name came from...the German translation for Auto Union.
mmarshall is offline  
Old 07-07-06, 12:03 PM
  #27  
bmgs400
Lexus Champion
 
bmgs400's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

As far as rankings go...on the surface they may be on the money. I've never test drove any of these cars, but the E63 LOOKS damn nice.
bmgs400 is offline  
Old 07-07-06, 12:08 PM
  #28  
Gojirra99
Super Moderator
 
Gojirra99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 30,097
Received 219 Likes on 147 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by mmarshall
Yes. That is EXACTLY the reason WHY Audi is using those awful new Debbie-does-Dallas grilles.
Debbie-Does-Dallas grilles ? First time I' ve heard of that . . .what exactly does it mean ?

I didn't know you are interested in THAT kind of movies BTW
Gojirra99 is offline  
Old 07-07-06, 12:13 PM
  #29  
mmarshall
Lexus Fanatic
 
mmarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Posts: 91,097
Received 87 Likes on 86 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by LexArazzo
Debbie-Does-Dallas grilles ? First time I' ve heard of that . . .what exactly does it mean ?

p
Well, if you don't know I'm not going to spill the beans.
mmarshall is offline  
Old 07-07-06, 12:16 PM
  #30  
Gojirra99
Super Moderator
 
Gojirra99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 30,097
Received 219 Likes on 147 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by mmarshall
Well, if you don't know I'm not going to spill the beans.
Ah, I think I get it now I suppose you can call them Linda Lovelace grilles too ?
Gojirra99 is offline  


Quick Reply: Automobile Mag: 1. E63, 2. S6, 3. M5 (Full Text pg. 2)



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:37 PM.