Lexus vs. German Premium Brands
06-16-06, 02:32 PM
#16
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Originally Posted by xioix
Far ahead with what
06-16-06, 02:35 PM
#17
Lexus Champion
Didn't Lexus just start marketing itself in Europe not too long ago?
If you're in the market competing with brands that have had a very long history of success and
prestige like MB and BMW, it will be a while until people will acknowlege the Lexus nameplate.
Lexus was intended for the US market and it has done very, very well. Now that it's moving
into European territory and even it's own market, Japan, people will start to become more
familiar with the brand.
Yes the German cars have prestige and heritage, but Lexus will continute to come out with
great cars which are RELIABLE. That is the one reason why I would buy a Lexus over any
German car. Period. Everybody builds great cars, but if it's in the shop and you have to drive
the entry level loaner car, you don't look good.
Where's JayZ? He needs to start rappin' about Lexus.
If you're in the market competing with brands that have had a very long history of success and
prestige like MB and BMW, it will be a while until people will acknowlege the Lexus nameplate.
Lexus was intended for the US market and it has done very, very well. Now that it's moving
into European territory and even it's own market, Japan, people will start to become more
familiar with the brand.
Yes the German cars have prestige and heritage, but Lexus will continute to come out with
great cars which are RELIABLE. That is the one reason why I would buy a Lexus over any
German car. Period. Everybody builds great cars, but if it's in the shop and you have to drive
the entry level loaner car, you don't look good.
Where's JayZ? He needs to start rappin' about Lexus.
06-16-06, 02:43 PM
#18
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by doug_999
The German cars tend to have a lot more technology in them much sooner than the Japanese. Take a look at what the 7-series had back in late 2001 as one example.
When the LS430 came out in late 2000, it too was packed with a lot more technologies than the competitors at the time. Latest is almost always the greatest in this game. It's just a matter of who the latest is, at any given time. The S-Class is it right now. Next year, it'll be the LS460. And then, it'll be the 7-Series all over again. Nobody is far ahead of anybody.
06-16-06, 02:44 PM
#19
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Originally Posted by doug_999
The German cars tend to have a lot more technology in them much sooner than the Japanese. Take a look at what the 7-series had back in late 2001 as one example.
06-16-06, 03:34 PM
#20
Originally Posted by doug_999
The German cars tend to have a lot more technology in them much sooner than the Japanese. Take a look at what the 7-series had back in late 2001 as one example.
06-16-06, 04:32 PM
#21
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Originally Posted by bruce van
Didn't Lexus just start marketing itself in Europe not too long ago?
If you're in the market competing with brands that have had a very long history of success and
prestige like MB and BMW, it will be a while until people will acknowlege the Lexus nameplate.
Lexus was intended for the US market and it has done very, very well. Now that it's moving
into European territory and even it's own market, Japan, people will start to become more
familiar with the brand.
Yes the German cars have prestige and heritage, but Lexus will continute to come out with
great cars which are RELIABLE. That is the one reason why I would buy a Lexus over any
German car. Period. Everybody builds great cars, but if it's in the shop and you have to drive
the entry level loaner car, you don't look good.
Where's JayZ? He needs to start rappin' about Lexus.
If you're in the market competing with brands that have had a very long history of success and
prestige like MB and BMW, it will be a while until people will acknowlege the Lexus nameplate.
Lexus was intended for the US market and it has done very, very well. Now that it's moving
into European territory and even it's own market, Japan, people will start to become more
familiar with the brand.
Yes the German cars have prestige and heritage, but Lexus will continute to come out with
great cars which are RELIABLE. That is the one reason why I would buy a Lexus over any
German car. Period. Everybody builds great cars, but if it's in the shop and you have to drive
the entry level loaner car, you don't look good.
Where's JayZ? He needs to start rappin' about Lexus.
A big problem has been no diesal offering and Lexus does not offer the huge number of cars/suvs like the compeitiors. You can get a 3 in 43 diferent ways in Europe!!
06-16-06, 04:36 PM
#22
I think Toyota/Lexus is a lot like Dell when it comes to R&D and innovation. And that's a good thing for their customers and shareholders:
Are you beefing up R&D to make your consumer products more unique, or is it more the case of using your distribution muscle?
We have 3,600 folks in our R&D division and spend half a billion dollars a year, similar to the amount Apple spends. We don't think percentage of revenue is a good measure of success in R&D. We look at it as--what do we need to spend to accomplish what we need to accomplish?
But you feed off Microsoft and Intel R&D.
Our strategy for development is different than Microsoft's or Intel's. Those are ingredient companies. We're a computer systems company. We have a higher return on R&D than any other computer systems company, about five times the profit for every R&D dollar spent. A lot of companies say they're better than us because they spend more on R&D. What are they better at? A lot of the R&D spending is actually spent to protect things that are proprietary, of no benefit to the customer. We only do the kind (of R&D) that benefits the customer. We don't try to reinvent things that other companies have (invented).
What have you done specifically on the R&D side that you're proud of?
We've made products easier to use and service. We've innovated in time-to-market. Who had the first color notebook powered by batteries? It's Dell. There's this misnomer that companies that spend more on R&D are somehow better and more successful, but there isn't a lot of data to support that.
If you look at innovation, it doesn't just occur in the lab. Comdex is the place you go to show things that nobody knows what to do with, because they haven't found a market yet. We don't develop things nobody knows what to do with. We develop things people want to buy--and buy in volume. Innovation can occur in supply chain and logistics, manufacturing and distribution, and sales and service. We've made computing products far more affordable. If you look at the cost of computers 20 years ago versus now, we've caused the whole industry to get more efficient.
How do you see your role in terms of design? Would you rather let someone like Apple take the lead?
We spend about as much as Apple in R&D. Just because we sell a whole lot more doesn't mean we're bad. I thought that was part of the objective.
http://news.com.com/2008-1001-5110303.html
Are you beefing up R&D to make your consumer products more unique, or is it more the case of using your distribution muscle?
We have 3,600 folks in our R&D division and spend half a billion dollars a year, similar to the amount Apple spends. We don't think percentage of revenue is a good measure of success in R&D. We look at it as--what do we need to spend to accomplish what we need to accomplish?
But you feed off Microsoft and Intel R&D.
Our strategy for development is different than Microsoft's or Intel's. Those are ingredient companies. We're a computer systems company. We have a higher return on R&D than any other computer systems company, about five times the profit for every R&D dollar spent. A lot of companies say they're better than us because they spend more on R&D. What are they better at? A lot of the R&D spending is actually spent to protect things that are proprietary, of no benefit to the customer. We only do the kind (of R&D) that benefits the customer. We don't try to reinvent things that other companies have (invented).
What have you done specifically on the R&D side that you're proud of?
We've made products easier to use and service. We've innovated in time-to-market. Who had the first color notebook powered by batteries? It's Dell. There's this misnomer that companies that spend more on R&D are somehow better and more successful, but there isn't a lot of data to support that.
If you look at innovation, it doesn't just occur in the lab. Comdex is the place you go to show things that nobody knows what to do with, because they haven't found a market yet. We don't develop things nobody knows what to do with. We develop things people want to buy--and buy in volume. Innovation can occur in supply chain and logistics, manufacturing and distribution, and sales and service. We've made computing products far more affordable. If you look at the cost of computers 20 years ago versus now, we've caused the whole industry to get more efficient.
How do you see your role in terms of design? Would you rather let someone like Apple take the lead?
We spend about as much as Apple in R&D. Just because we sell a whole lot more doesn't mean we're bad. I thought that was part of the objective.
http://news.com.com/2008-1001-5110303.html
06-16-06, 06:52 PM
#23
Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
Leuxs has been around in Europe since 1990.
A big problem has been no diesal offering and Lexus does not offer the huge number of cars/suvs like the compeitiors. You can get a 3 in 43 diferent ways in Europe!!
A big problem has been no diesal offering and Lexus does not offer the huge number of cars/suvs like the compeitiors. You can get a 3 in 43 diferent ways in Europe!!
About a month ago there was a heated discussion on a Honda board concerning the upcoming diesel MDX. I critisized the decision and said a diesel luxury SUV will never sell in the US market. Right away I was jumped by Honda loving boys who were trying to prove that diesels suddently became the best thing since sliced bread because
1) Diesel is popular in Europe
2) Because Honda is making one
Then another member, Schneegz, came in and beat some sense into their heads with this post.
Originally Posted by Schneegz
It's humorous reading the debates that go on concerning Diesel engines on this and other boards. There is always one camp that dispises Diesels, and one camp that practically worships them, holding them as the Holy Grail of automotive technology that sophisticated Europeans have discovered, and, if only ignorant Americans would get on board, the world would be a better place.
I'm an American living in Europe. Bamberg, Germany, to be exact. I've driven a BMW 5-series Diesel. I rented it last year when I first moved here. It was brand new, with only a few miles on the odometer. I also drive among dozens, if not hundreds, of European Diesel engine cars every day, some new, some old.
Guess what?
1. The new ones still rattle.
2. The new ones still smoke.
3. The new ones still stink.
All these annoyances have been greatly reduced compared with Diesels of yesteryear. For example, I couldn't hear the BMW's engine when I drove it with the windows up. I could only hear it with the windows rolled down. I don't mind the Diesel rattle, but others do, and that BMW Diesel did NOT have the melifluous sound of a gasoline BMW I-6, not by a LONG shot. Other than that, it was smooth, comfortable, and sporty enough to be enjoyable to drive.
Driving behind many a brand new Audi, BMW, VW and Mercedes Diesel I've noticed that, when they start from a stop sign or stop light, and when they downshift on a slow corner, or going uphill, they belch out a puff of black smoke. Again, a huge improvement over the Diesels of the past, but still not as clean as a modern gasoline engine. This should come as no surprise.
Another issue I noticed driving behind European Diesels. They still stink. Even inside my car (now a Euro-spec, 1999 gasoline Ford Mondeo) with the windows rolled up, I can still detect the unmistakeable scent of Diesel fumes eminating from the tail pipes of even the newest European wunderDiesels.
Also, keep in mind that European governments keep Diesel prices artificially lower than gasoline prices by taxing gasoline at much higher percentages than Diesel, which makes Diesel cars more popular here. US Federal and State governments don't do that, so Diesel prices in the US are typically higher than gasoline prices due to supply and demand issues.
Will Mercedes' Bluetec eliminate the smoke and the smell? I don't know, I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Will Diesels sell in the US? I think they will. I'd buy one. I'd love it if my Toyota 4Runner back home had a modern TurboDiesel.
And that's where manufacturers should start reintroducing Diesels, in bigger vehicles like SUVs. I think the people who drive SUVs, pickups and even minivans would be more receptive to a Diesel engine than, say, someone shopping for a compact sedan, or a luxury sedan.
I'm an American living in Europe. Bamberg, Germany, to be exact. I've driven a BMW 5-series Diesel. I rented it last year when I first moved here. It was brand new, with only a few miles on the odometer. I also drive among dozens, if not hundreds, of European Diesel engine cars every day, some new, some old.
Guess what?
1. The new ones still rattle.
2. The new ones still smoke.
3. The new ones still stink.
All these annoyances have been greatly reduced compared with Diesels of yesteryear. For example, I couldn't hear the BMW's engine when I drove it with the windows up. I could only hear it with the windows rolled down. I don't mind the Diesel rattle, but others do, and that BMW Diesel did NOT have the melifluous sound of a gasoline BMW I-6, not by a LONG shot. Other than that, it was smooth, comfortable, and sporty enough to be enjoyable to drive.
Driving behind many a brand new Audi, BMW, VW and Mercedes Diesel I've noticed that, when they start from a stop sign or stop light, and when they downshift on a slow corner, or going uphill, they belch out a puff of black smoke. Again, a huge improvement over the Diesels of the past, but still not as clean as a modern gasoline engine. This should come as no surprise.
Another issue I noticed driving behind European Diesels. They still stink. Even inside my car (now a Euro-spec, 1999 gasoline Ford Mondeo) with the windows rolled up, I can still detect the unmistakeable scent of Diesel fumes eminating from the tail pipes of even the newest European wunderDiesels.
Also, keep in mind that European governments keep Diesel prices artificially lower than gasoline prices by taxing gasoline at much higher percentages than Diesel, which makes Diesel cars more popular here. US Federal and State governments don't do that, so Diesel prices in the US are typically higher than gasoline prices due to supply and demand issues.
Will Mercedes' Bluetec eliminate the smoke and the smell? I don't know, I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Will Diesels sell in the US? I think they will. I'd buy one. I'd love it if my Toyota 4Runner back home had a modern TurboDiesel.
And that's where manufacturers should start reintroducing Diesels, in bigger vehicles like SUVs. I think the people who drive SUVs, pickups and even minivans would be more receptive to a Diesel engine than, say, someone shopping for a compact sedan, or a luxury sedan.
Originally Posted by Schneegz
However, let's not get too carried away on the potential popularity of Diesels in the US. Take Germany for example. Roughly 50% of the cars sold here are Diesels. Gasoline costs about $5/US gallon. Diesel costs less.
Think about that for a minute.
That means that roughly 50% of Germans would rather pay $5/US gallon, AND get worse fuel economy, than drive a Diesel, which is cheaper to fill up, AND gets better fuel mileage.
Now, how do you propose to persuade Americans, who pay $2/US gallon, to pay more for a gallon of Diesel?
Think about that for a minute.
That means that roughly 50% of Germans would rather pay $5/US gallon, AND get worse fuel economy, than drive a Diesel, which is cheaper to fill up, AND gets better fuel mileage.
Now, how do you propose to persuade Americans, who pay $2/US gallon, to pay more for a gallon of Diesel?
http://www.honda-acura.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=230063
06-16-06, 07:02 PM
#24
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by XeroK00L
Yeah, I see they came out with that innovative unnecessity they call the I-Drive.
,
,
06-16-06, 07:48 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by xioix
I looked at what a 2001 750i and 2000 LS400 had, and nothing made the 7 far ahead in anything
Even the 1997 540 had more technology than the 2004 GS430 (rain sensing wipers, one turn ignition, etc, etc.).
So much of this technology goes un-noticed - yet it is cool (and highly troublesome). The 745 has 128 different motors as one example.
06-16-06, 07:53 PM
#27
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Originally Posted by 4TehNguyen
with such advanced technology they need to go back in time and undo all the electrical defects they have, pretty ironic
06-16-06, 10:00 PM
#28
Originally Posted by doug_999
No, the 2002 745 - far ahead of even the 2006 LS430.
Even the 1997 540 had more technology than the 2004 GS430 (rain sensing wipers, one turn ignition, etc, etc.).
So much of this technology goes un-noticed - yet it is cool (and highly troublesome). The 745 has 128 different motors as one example.
Even the 1997 540 had more technology than the 2004 GS430 (rain sensing wipers, one turn ignition, etc, etc.).
So much of this technology goes un-noticed - yet it is cool (and highly troublesome). The 745 has 128 different motors as one example.
06-17-06, 09:50 AM
#29
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Europe is totally different than here. We have always had cheap gas, thus the Europeans ship us their more expensive and bigger engine cars. Even the Japanese had to change, Lexus offering V-8s, now 3.5 V-6s etc, where traditionally they were all about fuel economy.
Europe is also very LOYAL to their countries and brands. We have been sold bad American cars for so long, its damn near the opposite here.
In Europe there are just tons of different types of the SAME car. They get SL 350s and 635s. We don't. They get diesal cars in everything from A3s to A8s!! We don't.
Lexus has traditonally only offered one car with maybe one engine, 2 engines the most.
That won't cut it in Europe. Lexus has to offer MORE and MORE CHOICE.
Luxury is about CHOICE and its so funny, they state that in their own GS catalog. But they are very slow to offer it, even in America.
What is helping Lexus MOST in Europe right now is their USED CARS. People in Europe are buying and trying a used Lexus and finding out about the quality one by one and the word is spreading. Will these people buy new Lexus? Only time will tell
Europe is also very LOYAL to their countries and brands. We have been sold bad American cars for so long, its damn near the opposite here.
In Europe there are just tons of different types of the SAME car. They get SL 350s and 635s. We don't. They get diesal cars in everything from A3s to A8s!! We don't.
Lexus has traditonally only offered one car with maybe one engine, 2 engines the most.
That won't cut it in Europe. Lexus has to offer MORE and MORE CHOICE.
Luxury is about CHOICE and its so funny, they state that in their own GS catalog. But they are very slow to offer it, even in America.
What is helping Lexus MOST in Europe right now is their USED CARS. People in Europe are buying and trying a used Lexus and finding out about the quality one by one and the word is spreading. Will these people buy new Lexus? Only time will tell
06-17-06, 03:55 PM
#30
Originally Posted by doug_999
No, the 2002 745 - far ahead of even the 2006 LS430.
Even the 1997 540 had more technology than the 2004 GS430 (rain sensing wipers, one turn ignition, etc, etc.).
So much of this technology goes un-noticed - yet it is cool (and highly troublesome). The 745 has 128 different motors as one example.
Even the 1997 540 had more technology than the 2004 GS430 (rain sensing wipers, one turn ignition, etc, etc.).
So much of this technology goes un-noticed - yet it is cool (and highly troublesome). The 745 has 128 different motors as one example.
----------------
Europe is very specific market, and luxury vehicles are very specific market as well.
Reasons Lexus will never, ever, ever, ever, sell 1/3 as many cars as BMW/Audi/MB in Europe.
- Brand image is extremly important to Europeans. Extremly. You are going great if you are driving MB or BMW. Lexus who? You tell your girlfriend you have BMW, she doesnt care if it is 116i that goes 0-62 in 12 seconds, has steel wheels and no cd player.
- Brand Loyalty - My grandpa drove MB, my pops drives MB and I am driving MB.
- Country Loyalty - Germans will buy German. You gotta be much better for them not to buy German. Same goes for French, Italians, etc, etc, the biggest markets.
Then it goes from that to car specific things such as every european brand has diesels. It is not really about liking or not liking diesels, it is not about fuel economy that much anymore - main difference is resale value. You can not sell used non-diesel large car in Europe.
Another thing is that buying an luxury car in Europe is not about luxury, but about brand image. Most C segment cars (Golf, Astra, etc) have more equipment and luxury items than 2x more expensive BMW or MB. In Europe, Audi and BMW sell 4cly engines mostly, and a lot of them can not do 0-62 in under 10 seconds.
But I think most people are getting it wrong - why should Lexus sell as many cars as BMW or MB or Audi in Europe? They are not even trying to do that... What they are trying to do is build reputation of higher-luxury player, that does not have cheap versions of its cars as top sellers or 4cly engines accounting for >70% of the sales. Lexus has the luxury of not having to sell to everyone, because it has Toyota underneath it, and there is no reason for those two brands to compete...
This is why you see Lexus projections of growth in Europe slow but steady, with maxium growth to up to 100k units, which is 5x-6x less than BMW. Lexus does not need to go higher than that...
So if you are going to look at it from pure numbers perspective, I doubt Lexus will ever be "sucessful" in Europe... Not even in 20 years.