June 2006 Vehicle Sales
07-25-06, 08:01 PM
#166
Lexus Test Driver
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: None
Posts: 1,169
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
I will bet you that the GS460 will outaccelerate the 550i.
Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
Most people denounced even the notion that the IS350 would be able to outaccelerate the 330i ... boy were they proved wrong.
07-25-06, 10:32 PM
#167
Well before the 2 IS was even revealed, I seem to remember some BMW fanboys dismissing the New IS' potential performance targets, smugly confident in the 'superiority' of the 3-series.
07-25-06, 11:01 PM
#168
Lexus Fanatic
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: California
Posts: 6,084
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
Do you want to know why you got so much off the sticker of the GS430? Even though it's been mentioned multiple times, I will mention this again to get this point home.
GS430 production has STOPPED. Lexus has stopped building the GS430 for at least a few months now. Dealers right now have a very limited number of GS430s because the production end, and they are eagerly willing to sell these vehicles.
Some of you it seems wish to remain ignorant, and to believe, in your own mind, that the GS is a failure and a dissapointment, despite all the facts and evidence to the contrary, that the GS will improve, and that the 3GS came out the way it was (which was quite uncompetitive) due to various reasons.
GS430 production has STOPPED. Lexus has stopped building the GS430 for at least a few months now. Dealers right now have a very limited number of GS430s because the production end, and they are eagerly willing to sell these vehicles.
Some of you it seems wish to remain ignorant, and to believe, in your own mind, that the GS is a failure and a dissapointment, despite all the facts and evidence to the contrary, that the GS will improve, and that the 3GS came out the way it was (which was quite uncompetitive) due to various reasons.
07-26-06, 12:38 AM
#169
I would say the disconnect is between what Toyota/Lexus has set out as a goal and what some on this board, and many car enthusiasts in general, would want to see.
If it were me, the 3 GS would gain more 'edge,' more sport, and put up more of a fight with the 5-series in terms of sporty performance. If an IS 500, special performance model is on the horizon, why not an 'M5' GS version?
But for Lexus, their goals are for luxury first, performance second. Has been and always will be. So in that respect, the 3 GS is operating under strict guidelines that seem sharper this time around, more towards technology (VDIM, etc.) over sport. And they likely expect to take a medium market share, which is where the GS is at...around #3 in the market. Their priorities lie with a different customer--this is where the limited volume, halo car GS 450h comes in. That's the pinnacle of their focus and drive for the GS.
Now the new engine is sorely needed, IMO, to improve the perceived value of the car. Also to improve overall performance. Sportiness...also too, but a new engine will not be able to transform the GS entirely, nor should it be expected to.
So a GS 350 and GS 460 should be expected to sell...hopefully keeping the #3 spot for the duration of the model cycle, as I believe Lexus has set its goal at in doing. This is not a big volume seller like the IS/ES/RX, but a medium volume one.
There is significantly wide latitude, IMO, between failure and success. At present, I think that to some auto enthusiasts, the GS is a failure because its sales have not been spectacular--a fact 'justified' but the GS' emphasis on luxury over sport. But I would suggest it is not a failure entirely--sales would need to drop preciptiously, sharply, to show that in my book. It's middling at worst. Now since Lexus cars have such high standards, and Lexus sales overall are fantastic, 'middling' can be construed as a failure for Lexus...a glass half empty or half full situation in my view.
Comparatively, the 1 GS is an indicator of how Lexus has struggled to establish sports luxury cred--that car, Lexus actually resorted to fleet sales in order to prop up low sales figures--a decision now considered a brand-diluting mistake. The 2 GS turned that around, but then Lexus let that model stay on the market unchanged for quite a long time. The New GS seems to have taken the GS in a unique and third new direction in some ways...the verdict of which remains unclear.
If it were me, the 3 GS would gain more 'edge,' more sport, and put up more of a fight with the 5-series in terms of sporty performance. If an IS 500, special performance model is on the horizon, why not an 'M5' GS version?
But for Lexus, their goals are for luxury first, performance second. Has been and always will be. So in that respect, the 3 GS is operating under strict guidelines that seem sharper this time around, more towards technology (VDIM, etc.) over sport. And they likely expect to take a medium market share, which is where the GS is at...around #3 in the market. Their priorities lie with a different customer--this is where the limited volume, halo car GS 450h comes in. That's the pinnacle of their focus and drive for the GS.
Now the new engine is sorely needed, IMO, to improve the perceived value of the car. Also to improve overall performance. Sportiness...also too, but a new engine will not be able to transform the GS entirely, nor should it be expected to.
So a GS 350 and GS 460 should be expected to sell...hopefully keeping the #3 spot for the duration of the model cycle, as I believe Lexus has set its goal at in doing. This is not a big volume seller like the IS/ES/RX, but a medium volume one.
There is significantly wide latitude, IMO, between failure and success. At present, I think that to some auto enthusiasts, the GS is a failure because its sales have not been spectacular--a fact 'justified' but the GS' emphasis on luxury over sport. But I would suggest it is not a failure entirely--sales would need to drop preciptiously, sharply, to show that in my book. It's middling at worst. Now since Lexus cars have such high standards, and Lexus sales overall are fantastic, 'middling' can be construed as a failure for Lexus...a glass half empty or half full situation in my view.
Comparatively, the 1 GS is an indicator of how Lexus has struggled to establish sports luxury cred--that car, Lexus actually resorted to fleet sales in order to prop up low sales figures--a decision now considered a brand-diluting mistake. The 2 GS turned that around, but then Lexus let that model stay on the market unchanged for quite a long time. The New GS seems to have taken the GS in a unique and third new direction in some ways...the verdict of which remains unclear.
07-26-06, 10:23 AM
#170
Lexus Fanatic
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: California
Posts: 6,084
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by enigma888
I would say the disconnect is between what Toyota/Lexus has set out as a goal and what some on this board, and many car enthusiasts in general, would want to see.
If it were me, the 3 GS would gain more 'edge,' more sport, and put up more of a fight with the 5-series in terms of sporty performance. If an IS 500, special performance model is on the horizon, why not an 'M5' GS version?
But for Lexus, their goals are for luxury first, performance second. Has been and always will be. So in that respect, the 3 GS is operating under strict guidelines that seem sharper this time around, more towards technology (VDIM, etc.) over sport. And they likely expect to take a medium market share, which is where the GS is at...around #3 in the market. Their priorities lie with a different customer--this is where the limited volume, halo car GS 450h comes in. That's the pinnacle of their focus and drive for the GS.
Now the new engine is sorely needed, IMO, to improve the perceived value of the car. Also to improve overall performance. Sportiness...also too, but a new engine will not be able to transform the GS entirely, nor should it be expected to.
So a GS 350 and GS 460 should be expected to sell...hopefully keeping the #3 spot for the duration of the model cycle, as I believe Lexus has set its goal at in doing. This is not a big volume seller like the IS/ES/RX, but a medium volume one.
There is significantly wide latitude, IMO, between failure and success. At present, I think that to some auto enthusiasts, the GS is a failure because its sales have not been spectacular--a fact 'justified' but the GS' emphasis on luxury over sport. But I would suggest it is not a failure entirely--sales would need to drop preciptiously, sharply, to show that in my book. It's middling at worst. Now since Lexus cars have such high standards, and Lexus sales overall are fantastic, 'middling' can be construed as a failure for Lexus...a glass half empty or half full situation in my view.
Comparatively, the 1 GS is an indicator of how Lexus has struggled to establish sports luxury cred--that car, Lexus actually resorted to fleet sales in order to prop up low sales figures--a decision now considered a brand-diluting mistake. The 2 GS turned that around, but then Lexus let that model stay on the market unchanged for quite a long time. The New GS seems to have taken the GS in a unique and third new direction in some ways...the verdict of which remains unclear.
If it were me, the 3 GS would gain more 'edge,' more sport, and put up more of a fight with the 5-series in terms of sporty performance. If an IS 500, special performance model is on the horizon, why not an 'M5' GS version?
But for Lexus, their goals are for luxury first, performance second. Has been and always will be. So in that respect, the 3 GS is operating under strict guidelines that seem sharper this time around, more towards technology (VDIM, etc.) over sport. And they likely expect to take a medium market share, which is where the GS is at...around #3 in the market. Their priorities lie with a different customer--this is where the limited volume, halo car GS 450h comes in. That's the pinnacle of their focus and drive for the GS.
Now the new engine is sorely needed, IMO, to improve the perceived value of the car. Also to improve overall performance. Sportiness...also too, but a new engine will not be able to transform the GS entirely, nor should it be expected to.
So a GS 350 and GS 460 should be expected to sell...hopefully keeping the #3 spot for the duration of the model cycle, as I believe Lexus has set its goal at in doing. This is not a big volume seller like the IS/ES/RX, but a medium volume one.
There is significantly wide latitude, IMO, between failure and success. At present, I think that to some auto enthusiasts, the GS is a failure because its sales have not been spectacular--a fact 'justified' but the GS' emphasis on luxury over sport. But I would suggest it is not a failure entirely--sales would need to drop preciptiously, sharply, to show that in my book. It's middling at worst. Now since Lexus cars have such high standards, and Lexus sales overall are fantastic, 'middling' can be construed as a failure for Lexus...a glass half empty or half full situation in my view.
Comparatively, the 1 GS is an indicator of how Lexus has struggled to establish sports luxury cred--that car, Lexus actually resorted to fleet sales in order to prop up low sales figures--a decision now considered a brand-diluting mistake. The 2 GS turned that around, but then Lexus let that model stay on the market unchanged for quite a long time. The New GS seems to have taken the GS in a unique and third new direction in some ways...the verdict of which remains unclear.
07-26-06, 11:11 AM
#171
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
Originally Posted by enigma888
I would say the disconnect is between what Toyota/Lexus has set out as a goal and what some on this board, and many car enthusiasts in general, would want to see.
If it were me, the 3 GS would gain more 'edge,' more sport, and put up more of a fight with the 5-series in terms of sporty performance. If an IS 500, special performance model is on the horizon, why not an 'M5' GS version?
But for Lexus, their goals are for luxury first, performance second. Has been and always will be.
If it were me, the 3 GS would gain more 'edge,' more sport, and put up more of a fight with the 5-series in terms of sporty performance. If an IS 500, special performance model is on the horizon, why not an 'M5' GS version?
But for Lexus, their goals are for luxury first, performance second. Has been and always will be.
I really think the disconnect is between what the car IS and what their marketing pretends it is.
07-26-06, 11:43 AM
#172
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
If that's true, why have they advertised as "something wicked this way comes" way back, and even now they 3GS has ads showing it chasing a line of gasoline on fire or something - from standstill, around curves - showing how quick and great handling it is.
I really think the disconnect is between what the car IS and what their marketing pretends it is.
I really think the disconnect is between what the car IS and what their marketing pretends it is.
X3 is marketed as "Luxury that never forgets to have fun". Its neither fun nor luxury so what?
gimme a break.
07-26-06, 12:54 PM
#173
There's a difference I am talking about for the direction that the 3 GS has taken; the 2 GS was pure 'wicked' and basically all about a Lexus sport sedan, the banner now carried by the 2 IS.
The 3 GS focus goes from GS 300/350 up to the GS 450h, and what is the 450h chasing? Performance and gas consumption and low emissions. My point is, the 3 GS seems to have focused around 2 primary goals:
1) New styling direction (showcase for L-Finesse)
2) Technology implementation (VDIM, hybrids, etc.)
The emphasis, and time spent, seems to have focused on those areas more than anything else. If one took the 2 GS as a guideline, or base point, for how they would take the 3 GS, it seems that there would be more performance emphasis. But the performance is 'assumed' or 'added in.' More engine power is the element at play, largely here--450h and the engine upgrades, 460 and 350.
There's a reason why the 3 GS came with a carryover engine. Because the focus on the 3 GS was different. Lexus called it the 'most technologically advanced car in the world' despite that, because their focus was not the engine necessarily, but all the other things. That's my layman's opinion.
The 3 GS focus goes from GS 300/350 up to the GS 450h, and what is the 450h chasing? Performance and gas consumption and low emissions. My point is, the 3 GS seems to have focused around 2 primary goals:
1) New styling direction (showcase for L-Finesse)
2) Technology implementation (VDIM, hybrids, etc.)
The emphasis, and time spent, seems to have focused on those areas more than anything else. If one took the 2 GS as a guideline, or base point, for how they would take the 3 GS, it seems that there would be more performance emphasis. But the performance is 'assumed' or 'added in.' More engine power is the element at play, largely here--450h and the engine upgrades, 460 and 350.
There's a reason why the 3 GS came with a carryover engine. Because the focus on the 3 GS was different. Lexus called it the 'most technologically advanced car in the world' despite that, because their focus was not the engine necessarily, but all the other things. That's my layman's opinion.
07-26-06, 02:06 PM
#174
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
Originally Posted by spwolf
oh give me an break dude. How are they supposed to market the car? Thats why it is called marketing.
X3 is marketed as "Luxury that never forgets to have fun". Its neither fun nor luxury so what?
gimme a break.
X3 is marketed as "Luxury that never forgets to have fun". Its neither fun nor luxury so what?
gimme a break.
If a company advertises something they should deliver most of the goods, especially relative to its competition. Certainly Lexus is considered a luxury car maker too but when showing a GS chasing flames racing around curvy roads one expects the car to be able to deliver against its typical competition as presented, that would be 5 series, E class, and Infiniti M, all of which are more of a sports sedan than the 3GS.
BMW is considered a luxury performance vehicle maker whether the X3 qualifies or not and so that slogan you reference kind of fits that.
07-26-06, 02:11 PM
#175
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
Originally Posted by enigma888
There's a difference I am talking about for the direction that the 3 GS has taken; the 2 GS was pure 'wicked' and basically all about a Lexus sport sedan, the banner now carried by the 2 IS.
The 3 GS focus goes from GS 300/350 up to the GS 450h, and what is the 450h chasing? Performance and gas consumption and low emissions. My point is, the 3 GS seems to have focused around 2 primary goals:
1) New styling direction (showcase for L-Finesse)
2) Technology implementation (VDIM, hybrids, etc.)
The emphasis, and time spent, seems to have focused on those areas more than anything else. If one took the 2 GS as a guideline, or base point, for how they would take the 3 GS, it seems that there would be more performance emphasis. But the performance is 'assumed' or 'added in.' More engine power is the element at play, largely here--450h and the engine upgrades, 460 and 350.
There's a reason why the 3 GS came with a carryover engine. Because the focus on the 3 GS was different. Lexus called it the 'most technologically advanced car in the world' despite that, because their focus was not the engine necessarily, but all the other things. That's my layman's opinion.
The 3 GS focus goes from GS 300/350 up to the GS 450h, and what is the 450h chasing? Performance and gas consumption and low emissions. My point is, the 3 GS seems to have focused around 2 primary goals:
1) New styling direction (showcase for L-Finesse)
2) Technology implementation (VDIM, hybrids, etc.)
The emphasis, and time spent, seems to have focused on those areas more than anything else. If one took the 2 GS as a guideline, or base point, for how they would take the 3 GS, it seems that there would be more performance emphasis. But the performance is 'assumed' or 'added in.' More engine power is the element at play, largely here--450h and the engine upgrades, 460 and 350.
There's a reason why the 3 GS came with a carryover engine. Because the focus on the 3 GS was different. Lexus called it the 'most technologically advanced car in the world' despite that, because their focus was not the engine necessarily, but all the other things. That's my layman's opinion.
And the GS gets the new engines because that's becoming the Lexus standard V6 and V8.My point was simply that I think the 3GS TV ads are off the mark. They should focus as you say on technology and style. They could have an ad showing the car unocking as the person walks up to it (and presses the door button I think?), then shows the various lighting, pressing the start button, etc. The GS *is* a technological marvel.
07-26-06, 02:13 PM
#176
Lexus Fanatic
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: California
Posts: 6,084
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
I think that's a great analysis. And the GS gets the new engines because that's becoming the Lexus standard V6 and V8.
My point was simply that I think the 3GS TV ads are off the mark. They should focus as you say on technology and style. They could have an ad showing the car unocking as the person walks up to it (and presses the door button I think?), then shows the various lighting, pressing the start button, etc. The GS *is* a technological marvel.
And the GS gets the new engines because that's becoming the Lexus standard V6 and V8.My point was simply that I think the 3GS TV ads are off the mark. They should focus as you say on technology and style. They could have an ad showing the car unocking as the person walks up to it (and presses the door button I think?), then shows the various lighting, pressing the start button, etc. The GS *is* a technological marvel.
07-26-06, 04:03 PM
#177
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
I think that's a great analysis. And the GS gets the new engines because that's becoming the Lexus standard V6 and V8.
My point was simply that I think the 3GS TV ads are off the mark. They should focus as you say on technology and style. They could have an ad showing the car unocking as the person walks up to it (and presses the door button I think?), then shows the various lighting, pressing the start button, etc. The GS *is* a technological marvel.
And the GS gets the new engines because that's becoming the Lexus standard V6 and V8.My point was simply that I think the 3GS TV ads are off the mark. They should focus as you say on technology and style. They could have an ad showing the car unocking as the person walks up to it (and presses the door button I think?), then shows the various lighting, pressing the start button, etc. The GS *is* a technological marvel.
But they have the money, why not build an extra performance-emphasized GS model? One that completely and without question justifies the 'fire' and 'Lombard st.' ads? (Although I am hoping that the new engines justifies the former, and the AWD does already justify the latter).
Also, btw, the car will unlock as soon as you touch the handle--the button is only when you're leaving, you push that to lock.
07-26-06, 04:51 PM
#178
Lexus Champion
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: IL
Posts: 2,854
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
Uh, no it wasn't. I hate to remind you, but *at best*, the 540i tied the GS400/GS430 before it had the high stall torque converter. After, it was a tick faster than the GS400/GS430. Overall, you can say these two are virtually the same in acceleration.
And even though this is besides the point
, from the looks of things the 335i sedan will not be any faster than the IS350 in acceleration, despite having better numbers on paper.
BMW, as well as other German makers denounced Lexus when the first LS came out and did not take them seriously. BMW also, in their recent ad campaign, poked fun indirectly at Lexus, saying how BMW is one of the only companies that is "independent" and that doesn't stifle creativity. That ad campaign in fact was a great example of BMW's arrogance, in that they believe they are above most other automakers, Toyota included.
And even though this is besides the point
, from the looks of things the 335i sedan will not be any faster than the IS350 in acceleration, despite having better numbers on paper. BMW, as well as other German makers denounced Lexus when the first LS came out and did not take them seriously. BMW also, in their recent ad campaign, poked fun indirectly at Lexus, saying how BMW is one of the only companies that is "independent" and that doesn't stifle creativity. That ad campaign in fact was a great example of BMW's arrogance, in that they believe they are above most other automakers, Toyota included.
Now I have not seen any official test results of the 335 - so I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers from - also while the 335 has a torque advantage, I think the hp numbers are the same (and it weighs a bit more) - so the comment "having better numbers" is interesting at best.
You think that BMW is arrogant - maybe they are. All I know is that when you create a four door car that is as satisfying to drive as the BMWs I have owned, then maybe you can be arrogant.
08-01-06, 07:09 AM
#179
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
BMW is considered a luxury performance vehicle maker whether the X3 qualifies or not and so that slogan you reference kind of fits that.
But hey, it is ok since it is BMW.
lol.
on the other hand, did you guys know that Toyota is more profitable per vehicle than BMW? (8.9% compared to 8.1%). That is complete Toyota, not just Lexus, on global scale.
