Is Lexus failing?
08-02-06, 10:00 PM
#31
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Originally Posted by DaveGS4
Go drive one and report back before you 'blow sunshine' yourself 
.
Maybe you'll hate it still, maybe you'll be a convert like me.... but any value of your commentary on the ES350 is significantly diminished in my mind until you can speak from experience and not pure conjecture.
.Maybe you'll hate it still, maybe you'll be a convert like me.... but any value of your commentary on the ES350 is significantly diminished in my mind until you can speak from experience and not pure conjecture.
As for the ES350 ... nothing changes the MSRP ... $40k is steep for a porky FWD "not quite a sport sedan" if you ask me - DD or not - but if it floats your boat, fine.
If I was in the market for "porky FWD not quite a sport sedan" I'd make a single trip to an Acura dealer for the $35k (w/ nav) TL.
M.
Last edited by videcormeum; 08-02-06 at 10:04 PM.
08-02-06, 10:09 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by DaveGS4
OK, then I'll call it as I see it. More commentary without first hand knowledge.
Go drive one and report back before you 'blow sunshine' yourself.
Maybe you'll hate it still, maybe you'll be a convert like me.... but any value of your commentary on the ES350 is significantly diminished in my mind until you can speak from experience and not pure conjecture.
I've got my plans to get a LS460 in a couple of years as well (no PMs for part out dibs on my GS please) but have pretty much decided to get an ES350 over a 04/05 CPO LS430 after driving both to replace my daily LS400.
Go drive one and report back before you 'blow sunshine' yourself
.Maybe you'll hate it still, maybe you'll be a convert like me.... but any value of your commentary on the ES350 is significantly diminished in my mind until you can speak from experience and not pure conjecture.
I've got my plans to get a LS460 in a couple of years as well (no PMs for part out dibs on my GS please) but have pretty much decided to get an ES350 over a 04/05 CPO LS430 after driving both to replace my daily LS400.
I kid you I kid you
08-02-06, 10:17 PM
#33
It doesn't even matter how good or how bad the ES350 may be. The thing is it tops out at 41k, and majority of them aren't sold with all the options, so they sell for way below 40k, mid to high 30k. This is entry luxury market, and for people that are looking for an entry luxury car the ES is defenately the best choice. In fact, Lexus could discontinue all models besides the ES and RX right now, and still make a huge profit.
But the sad part is, people that can afford real premium cars at 50k and up are not buying Lexus. The fact is, BMW and MB people can rub in our faces that they are outselling Lexus. Time will show whether its production, lack of new models, or lack of new engines, but I really do hope that Lexus recovers from this slump.
But the sad part is, people that can afford real premium cars at 50k and up are not buying Lexus. The fact is, BMW and MB people can rub in our faces that they are outselling Lexus. Time will show whether its production, lack of new models, or lack of new engines, but I really do hope that Lexus recovers from this slump.
08-03-06, 12:00 AM
#34
^^^
OK, and what premium cars does Lexus offer that are 50k and up???? Let's see...CARS...LS 430, GS 430, and SC 430.
Now, LS has been #1 for all of its cycle, except this year when the LS 460 will come out. The GS is doing so-so, waiting for new engines. SC 430 is a niche car.
Seems to me that in this area, Lexus is awaiting new products. It's only natural that sales will not be so high. And right now the market for SUVs is down across the board with the cost of gas so high.
It's worth pointing out also that Lexus relies on its top-tier cars, LS, SC in particular to enhance its image--they are central to its success.
But seeing Lexus as 'failing' is crying wolf, or seeing the glass half-empty at best. The reality is, Lexus is breaking records with its sales. The LS is its only real chart-topper at the prestige luxury segment, and is the only real vehicle to challenge the Germans successfully in that area. And, guess what, it has beaten the S-class and 7-series for years and years now. That's a success.
And the 'pursuit' continues...only just now Lexus is beginning to expand its range, so far all the models have been replacements, with the exception of the IS expansion to 2 sedan models. But Lexus is #1 in the US with fewer model variations and types than the Germans.
Plus we're anticipating the LS 600h L, a real test for the ultra prestige end, the possible GT 500 supercar, and maybe even an L 650h Maybach-beater.
OK, and what premium cars does Lexus offer that are 50k and up???? Let's see...CARS...LS 430, GS 430, and SC 430.
Now, LS has been #1 for all of its cycle, except this year when the LS 460 will come out. The GS is doing so-so, waiting for new engines. SC 430 is a niche car.
Seems to me that in this area, Lexus is awaiting new products. It's only natural that sales will not be so high. And right now the market for SUVs is down across the board with the cost of gas so high.
It's worth pointing out also that Lexus relies on its top-tier cars, LS, SC in particular to enhance its image--they are central to its success.
But seeing Lexus as 'failing' is crying wolf, or seeing the glass half-empty at best. The reality is, Lexus is breaking records with its sales. The LS is its only real chart-topper at the prestige luxury segment, and is the only real vehicle to challenge the Germans successfully in that area. And, guess what, it has beaten the S-class and 7-series for years and years now. That's a success.
And the 'pursuit' continues...only just now Lexus is beginning to expand its range, so far all the models have been replacements, with the exception of the IS expansion to 2 sedan models. But Lexus is #1 in the US with fewer model variations and types than the Germans.
Plus we're anticipating the LS 600h L, a real test for the ultra prestige end, the possible GT 500 supercar, and maybe even an L 650h Maybach-beater.
08-03-06, 04:21 AM
#35
Lexus Fanatic
I don't want to cross our Administrator here, but I have to be honest. I recently reviewed a new 2007 ES350 and was not impressed with it at all. Not that it was a bad car ( it wasn't ) but IMO it was clearly not the equal of its predecessor, the ES330, which was a superb machine. The new 350 had a little more power and the usual awesome Lexus paint job, and it also retained the noise isolation of the previous car but also, IMO, had a lot of shortcomings compared to the 330. The quality of the interior hardware and materials seemed a step below the 330, there was much less wood trim ( perhaps in an effort to cut costs ), there were noticeable creaks and rattles( though minor ), and ride comfort was noticeably off that of the 330 because of the new lower-profile 55-series tires.
So if you like the car, Dave, fine......buy it and enjoy it. I'm with och, though..it didn't impress me.
So if you like the car, Dave, fine......buy it and enjoy it. I'm with och, though..it didn't impress me.
Last edited by mmarshall; 08-03-06 at 04:58 AM.
08-03-06, 04:32 AM
#36
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Originally Posted by Och
And what if they were the same price?
MM, absolutely no problems from me as long as you've looked at it in person before making comments out of hand
I was both surprised and impressed and its made my list to consider to buy.Regardless of my opinions on this car, I'm taking this slightly thread off track, so back on.... Lexus failing? I think the 3GS is in big trouble even with the new engines - other models are chipping away at sales from every angle. As discussed several cars and LUVs are end of lifecycle. To dismiss the entry or mid-level Luxury cars as a non-premium car that shouldn't be sold or considered Luxury badges.... well, if you worked for ANY luxury marquee on a strategy team I think you'd get fired. Be ashamed to drive one? If this bothers someone I bet people calling your Lexus a glorified Toyota really gets under your skin too. I've got no problems with that either... it is and Toyota makes great products... they're smart enough to share the R&D across platforms. So what. My GS has the same cruise control **** as my Camry did. I like that, it felt familiar when I bought the car.
Is Lexus failing? Absolutely not, even with the above the sales are impressive and they are extremely well positioned (from a car perspective, I honestly don't know much about the LUV model cycle).
Last edited by DaveGS4; 08-03-06 at 04:44 AM.
08-03-06, 05:03 AM
#37
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by DaveGS4
MM, absolutely no problems from me as long as you've looked at it in person before making comments out of hand I was both surprised and impressed and its made my list to consider to buy.
.
I was both surprised and impressed and its made my list to consider to buy..
Last edited by mmarshall; 08-03-06 at 05:09 AM.
08-03-06, 05:21 AM
#38
Originally Posted by Och
It doesn't even matter how good or how bad the ES350 may be. The thing is it tops out at 41k, and majority of them aren't sold with all the options, so they sell for way below 40k, mid to high 30k. This is entry luxury market, and for people that are looking for an entry luxury car the ES is defenately the best choice. In fact, Lexus could discontinue all models besides the ES and RX right now, and still make a huge profit.
But the sad part is, people that can afford real premium cars at 50k and up are not buying Lexus. The fact is, BMW and MB people can rub in our faces that they are outselling Lexus. Time will show whether its production, lack of new models, or lack of new engines, but I really do hope that Lexus recovers from this slump.
But the sad part is, people that can afford real premium cars at 50k and up are not buying Lexus. The fact is, BMW and MB people can rub in our faces that they are outselling Lexus. Time will show whether its production, lack of new models, or lack of new engines, but I really do hope that Lexus recovers from this slump.
lol, lol, lol.
lol, lol, lol.
thats loughing out loud.
1. Lexus is most profitable maker (outside of Porsche).
2. Lexus dealers are THE happiest franchise in the USA and make most money per vehicle.
3. Lexus customers are most satisfied in the country.
And yes, Lexus is topping the sales charts and IS GROWING more quickly than BMW or MB.
And BMW and MB dealers are what? Wanting to get into Lexus franchise. It is most expensive franchise to get into.
08-03-06, 05:47 AM
#39
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Originally Posted by DaveGS4
MM, absolutely no problems from me as long as you've looked at it in person before making comments out of hand I was both surprised and impressed and its made my list to consider to buy.
I was both surprised and impressed and its made my list to consider to buy.Since you've driven the car - did you hear the creaks and rattles mmarshall was referring to? He's driven the car apparently. Creaks and rattles for $40k? I'll trade you my Sentra for that money if you're looking for creaks and rattles + mediocre handling.
M.
08-03-06, 06:17 AM
#40
large SUV sales are down overall its not a Lexus only problem, LS and GS are getting redesigned and getting new engines and nav system respectively and has been widely publicized and known. Many people know its coming so why buy the model on an impending redesign or major revision
Thats like saying your 401k/IRA is failing when it falls for several months but in the long run it always gains, youre overreacting and jumping the gun too quickly
Thats like saying your 401k/IRA is failing when it falls for several months but in the long run it always gains, youre overreacting and jumping the gun too quickly
Last edited by 4TehNguyen; 08-03-06 at 07:42 AM.
08-03-06, 06:33 AM
#41
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Originally Posted by videcormeum
Come on, aside form the torque steer issue - which was my first and only driving-related contention - did you even read the rest of my posts? You don't think Lexus could have done better? That's all I'm saying.
Since you've driven the car - did you hear the creaks and rattles mmarshall was referring to? He's driven the car apparently. Creaks and rattles for $40k? I'll trade you my Sentra for that money if you're looking for creaks and rattles + mediocre handling.
M.
Since you've driven the car - did you hear the creaks and rattles mmarshall was referring to? He's driven the car apparently. Creaks and rattles for $40k? I'll trade you my Sentra for that money if you're looking for creaks and rattles + mediocre handling.
M.
. As a general comment, I think very few Lexus owners (performance enthusiasts like those on CL notwithstanding) drive their Lexus hard enough to care about torque steer or even know what it is. Could Lexus have done better? Sure, there is always room for improvement. An entirely new platform? IMO not needed and I suspect would push the price point that folks are complaining about here even higher. I *like* the idea that Toyota is putting more research and expertise into a single platform for Camry/ES/RX etc rather then spreading themselves thin.
I have driven two ES350s for extended periods and I heard none of the creaks and rattles he refers to. Again with the 'creaks and rattles' commentary, I think you're making negative observations based on something you have no personal experience with
. No, I want nothing to do with your Sentra... but you want to buy a used LS400 that's nice and quiet? Only reaching middle age at 101K miles 
08-03-06, 06:43 AM
#42
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My (cloudy) crystal ball on the 3rd gen GS
(known) GS350 comes out and push a small spike in sales, but not as much as Lexus hopes. GS430 sales drop to a trickle with great deals to be had.
Mors GS460 info is announced, but still missing certain key details. Will improvements push it to the 'near 400hp' level up from the LS 380hp? Is the 8 speed transmission 'too plush' for performance and the CVT will be offered to give it more sport?
In addition to the new engine, Lexus decides to push out a facelift front/rear for the 3GS to coincide with the GS460 launch. GS350 intake / exhaust are re-worked at the same time for another small increase in HP. Sales increase incrementally, but the GS460's price keeps many buyers away.
Carson Toyota group buys on the new 3GS head and taillights sell like gangbusters before Lexus decides makes you buy the entire car to get the lights.
4GS comes out a year sooner than planned.
(known) GS350 comes out and push a small spike in sales, but not as much as Lexus hopes. GS430 sales drop to a trickle with great deals to be had.
Mors GS460 info is announced, but still missing certain key details. Will improvements push it to the 'near 400hp' level up from the LS 380hp? Is the 8 speed transmission 'too plush' for performance and the CVT will be offered to give it more sport?
In addition to the new engine, Lexus decides to push out a facelift front/rear for the 3GS to coincide with the GS460 launch. GS350 intake / exhaust are re-worked at the same time for another small increase in HP. Sales increase incrementally, but the GS460's price keeps many buyers away.
Carson Toyota group buys on the new 3GS head and taillights sell like gangbusters before Lexus decides makes you buy the entire car to get the lights.
4GS comes out a year sooner than planned.
08-03-06, 06:46 AM
#43
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Originally Posted by Och
I guess it is yet to be seen how the all new LS does, but the GS has just been redesigned last year and its sales are miserable, right down there with RL and Q45.
GS
2,075 - July 2006
15,568 - 2006 year-to-date
RL
1,272 - July 2006
6,932 - 2006 year-to-date
Q45
28 - July 2006
324 - 2006 year-to-date
08-03-06, 06:59 AM
#44
Originally Posted by Lenscap
This is not true. Check out the sales numbers below. Also note the Q45 has been such a failure it is being dropped for 2007.
GS
2,075 - July 2006
15,568 - 2006 year-to-date
RL
1,272 - July 2006
6,932 - 2006 year-to-date
Q45
28 - July 2006
324 - 2006 year-to-date
GS
2,075 - July 2006
15,568 - 2006 year-to-date
RL
1,272 - July 2006
6,932 - 2006 year-to-date
Q45
28 - July 2006
324 - 2006 year-to-date
We can all agree the 3GS is a disappointment of sorts, but saying
Lexus is failing is just too harsh. The new LS is receiving rave reviews
from the Auto mags for its styling and refinement. It looks to be a
stunning package and I would be shocked if it did not kick major ***.
I want one