End of Jag?
08-04-06, 11:14 AM
#31
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Originally Posted by bitkahuna
Maybe we should discuss WHY Jags aren't selling in sufficient numbers.
I think a big factor is the interiors and space efficiency (or lack thereof). The latest XJ is a bit better but front seat room really isn't that great.
The lingering doubts about Jag's reliability from bad times past is still there, even though they're much improved. It's certainly ironic that FORD improved Jag's quality, but that tie to Ford actually HURTS Jag's image too. But it must be a brand management issue because Chrysler really hasn't brought down the reputation of MB, but MB has brought UP the reputation of Chrysler I think. Maybe that's it - prestige maker takes over mainstream maker vs. the other way around.
The XK is a nice vehicle, but selling $80K convertibles and coupes in a questionable brand in sufficient numbers to make money isn't so easy.
The car business seems to be one where you either sell in small numbers at very high prices, or sell in huge numbers at lower prices. There's no in between UNLESS you can successfully and economically leverage your mainstream parts in your niche vehicles. I guess Ford hasn't been able to do that enough with Jag.
Finally, maybe there's a management problem. Being from England myself I've no doubt that there's a lot of pride/ego in the British Jag management, clinging to times long past, and still not 'getting' the realities of the modern car business. They're almost like Porsche was a little over a decade ago - people liked the designs, but the quality and profitability was small. What did Porsche do? They REINVENTED everything about the way they did business, and turned to JAPANESE consultants to help them revamp the way they make vehicles. I think Jag needs to do the same or it will dwindle into complete obscurity.
I think a big factor is the interiors and space efficiency (or lack thereof). The latest XJ is a bit better but front seat room really isn't that great.
The lingering doubts about Jag's reliability from bad times past is still there, even though they're much improved. It's certainly ironic that FORD improved Jag's quality, but that tie to Ford actually HURTS Jag's image too. But it must be a brand management issue because Chrysler really hasn't brought down the reputation of MB, but MB has brought UP the reputation of Chrysler I think. Maybe that's it - prestige maker takes over mainstream maker vs. the other way around.
The XK is a nice vehicle, but selling $80K convertibles and coupes in a questionable brand in sufficient numbers to make money isn't so easy.
The car business seems to be one where you either sell in small numbers at very high prices, or sell in huge numbers at lower prices. There's no in between UNLESS you can successfully and economically leverage your mainstream parts in your niche vehicles. I guess Ford hasn't been able to do that enough with Jag.
Finally, maybe there's a management problem. Being from England myself I've no doubt that there's a lot of pride/ego in the British Jag management, clinging to times long past, and still not 'getting' the realities of the modern car business. They're almost like Porsche was a little over a decade ago - people liked the designs, but the quality and profitability was small. What did Porsche do? They REINVENTED everything about the way they did business, and turned to JAPANESE consultants to help them revamp the way they make vehicles. I think Jag needs to do the same or it will dwindle into complete obscurity.
08-04-06, 01:30 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by RON430
Bit I will add in complete redesigns that end up looking like the previous model. You have to be a gearhead or have them both side by side to see a lot of difference in the XK8 and XK, the average person won't see much difference. As for the XJ I am not sure I can count up the number of complete redesigns that ended with the same looking car. It may not explain all their problems, but it didn't help. I may not be a big fan of throwing out what works but when you bring out a next gen car it needs to look like the next gen.
Competition got TOUGHER and Jaguar languished. The XK8 coupe came in 95 and didn't change for 10 years. The XJ did well but simply offers no clear advantage over the competiton.
Then came a Ford Thunderbird based S-type, that aged poorly and never did well in ANY comparison. Its like it never came out.
The X-type did even WORSE, a Ford Mondeo based car.
The RETARDED thing is Jaguar had HIGHER prestige than Lexus and many other brands but instead of going UPMARKET or attacking niches, they decided to go DOWNMARKET and chase SALES and DESTROYED the brand in 5 years.
Utterly DESTROYED it. Now its image and prestige is wishy washy, in a ultra competative market.
From my reading and understanding, Jags were known as possibly the most beautiful cars to own and top luxury features.
We can no longer say that. They are average and average today= 2nd tier or worse.
So sad, so sad.
08-04-06, 01:43 PM
#33
Originally Posted by 4TehNguyen
ever been in an X type, unbelievable how bad that car is
08-04-06, 01:48 PM
#34
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Originally Posted by reggiek
I have and I don't consider it a real Jag. It's underpinnings are the Ford Mondeo marketed in Europe. They put a faux Jag shell on top but it still feels like a Ford to me. I rented one for the weekend. I couldn't believe the obvious Fordness of it.
08-04-06, 02:44 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by RON430
Bit I will add in complete redesigns that end up looking like the previous model. You have to be a gearhead or have them both side by side to see a lot of difference in the XK8 and XK, the average person won't see much difference. As for the XJ I am not sure I can count up the number of complete redesigns that ended with the same looking car. It may not explain all their problems, but it didn't help. I may not be a big fan of throwing out what works but when you bring out a next gen car it needs to look like the next gen.
In fact, that has been one of the things that ( up to now ) has kept Jaguar IN buisness.......beautiful designs that did not change radically from one year to the next.
08-04-06, 03:50 PM
#36
I like the look of the X-Type... that's about it. It's cramped inside, the plastics are low rent and the only thing that looks Jaguarish is the dashboard. They had a chance to build a 3-series/IS/C-Class/A4 competitor and blew it. In Canada, it was originally offered in 2.5 and 3.0 litre AWD versions. The 2.5 started at $41k and the 3.0 at around $49k. After 2 years, they dropped the 2.5 litre and dropped the price of the 3.0 litre back down to $43k (or thereabouts, I don't remember). In Europe, a FWD version is offered.
Basing it off the Mondeo platform isn't a bad thing. The Mondeo is miles ahead of the Taurus and the chassis, I believe, is fairly competent. They always seem to compare the Mondeo to the 3 series in terms of "would you get a well equipped Mondeo or a poorer equipped 3 series (say 316i)"
Basing it off the Mondeo platform isn't a bad thing. The Mondeo is miles ahead of the Taurus and the chassis, I believe, is fairly competent. They always seem to compare the Mondeo to the 3 series in terms of "would you get a well equipped Mondeo or a poorer equipped 3 series (say 316i)"
08-04-06, 04:20 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by mmarshall
I'm not sure I totally agree with this. Look at the wild sales of the new VW Beetle, Mustang, and PT Cruiser. Why? Not because they look like tomorrow's cars, ( or today's ) but because they look like yesterdays.
In fact, that has been one of the things that ( up to now ) has kept Jaguar IN buisness.......beautiful designs that did not change radically from one year to the next.
In fact, that has been one of the things that ( up to now ) has kept Jaguar IN buisness.......beautiful designs that did not change radically from one year to the next.
08-04-06, 05:54 PM
#39
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Originally Posted by mmarshall
You sure can't criticize much else about a Jag interior ( except maybe the quirky J-Gate shifter ).........they use some of the best quality materials in the buisness. The Jaguar wood and Connally leather did not get its reputation for nothing.
08-04-06, 06:10 PM
#40
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Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
I am going to add totally ignoring the oncoming Japanese luxury brands, specifically Lexus.
Originally Posted by I said
Being from England myself I've no doubt that there's a lot of pride/ego in the British Jag management, clinging to times long past, and still not 'getting' the realities of the modern car business.
Originally Posted by You said
Now its image and prestige is wishy washy, in a ultra competative market.
08-05-06, 10:23 AM
#41
I sure won't miss it.
In the past just to be different from the mb, bmw, and audi crowd, I've looked at the jags. Just sitting in it made me got out and walked out of the dealership as fast as I could. Thankfully no salesmen were there to help me.
I going to offend people here, but who buys jag when there's a lot of better cars out there.
The XJ which is their flagship (right?) is so small
I was hoping to like the new xk (after seeing how good it was in photo here in CL), but after seeing one in person
In the past just to be different from the mb, bmw, and audi crowd, I've looked at the jags. Just sitting in it made me got out and walked out of the dealership as fast as I could. Thankfully no salesmen were there to help me.
I going to offend people here, but who buys jag when there's a lot of better cars out there.
The XJ which is their flagship (right?) is so small
I was hoping to like the new xk (after seeing how good it was in photo here in CL), but after seeing one in person
08-05-06, 03:32 PM
#43
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the possibility of hyundai buying jag seems like an ideal situation. hyundai products are getting very good and they do want to add a luxury line... this is a shortcut as they wouldnt have to build prestige. the history is already there. they are probably the one of the few companies out there that is good but doesnt have a lux line yet. they should add one.
08-05-06, 03:54 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by loveslexus
I had a 2001 Jaguar S-Type..... The service sucked....the tranny acted wierd so I sold it before the 36,000 mile warrenty ran out.
The interior is not that great either. But on the outside it sure looked good.
The interior is not that great either. But on the outside it sure looked good.
You did good dumping it.
I think the S-type is actually a very attractive car IMO. Too bad it has the reliability of a 1st gen Kia.
08-06-06, 07:02 AM
#45
Originally Posted by Dynasty SC
the possibility of hyundai buying jag seems like an ideal situation. hyundai products are getting very good and they do want to add a luxury line... this is a shortcut as they wouldnt have to build prestige. the history is already there. they are probably the one of the few companies out there that is good but doesnt have a lux line yet. they should add one.