2007 Infiniti G35 sedan thread (merged thread)
#76
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Sure it's a design choice, but I think in this case it *was* a requirement for Nissan engineers to get increased power from the VQ. Despite Nissan saying the engine is "80% all-new", I think it fundamentally remains of similar design to the previous VQ. Compare this with Toyota's old MZ engine, and the newer from-scratch GR series V6 engines. There is a huge boost in power, whereas the old VQ35DE compared to the new VQ35HR ... there don't seem to be many dramatic differences, which would lead one to assume that the engine is not that dramatically different.
Nissan engineers could have added NeoDI to the VQ35HR, but they didn't. So in hindsight, the high rev design "choice" seems like a requirement in order to make over 300HP.
Torque in general, in particular low-end torque, helps a lot with launches, not to mention mid-range speed.
Because the VQ35HR must rev quite high, the torque band on the power curve is stretched thinner, and the engine must rev higher in order to achieve peak torque.
Also, revving higher, by design leads to lower fuel economy, because engine efficiency decreases as you rev higher.
If you've never seen the IS350's power band, it has a strong HP curve all the way up to redline, and a wide flat torque curve as well ... in fact, torque remains strong from the low end, all the way up to 6000 RPM. Ward's themselves quote the 2GR-FSE as the current standard to beat when it comes to premium high output V6 engines.
The high rev design allows Nissan to extract more power out of the VQ35HR, but some sacrifices must be made. The 2GR-FSE, thanks to it's complex injection system, and state of the art V6 design allows it to be one big contradiction, that makes very little compromises.
Personally, I do not believe such a high rev engine should be put into a luxury car, unless it's some special sport version. Apart from fuel economy, and power, I believe the VQ35HR also won't be as smooth or refined as the 2GR-FSE.
Nissan engineers could have added NeoDI to the VQ35HR, but they didn't. So in hindsight, the high rev design "choice" seems like a requirement in order to make over 300HP.
Torque in general, in particular low-end torque, helps a lot with launches, not to mention mid-range speed.
Because the VQ35HR must rev quite high, the torque band on the power curve is stretched thinner, and the engine must rev higher in order to achieve peak torque.
Also, revving higher, by design leads to lower fuel economy, because engine efficiency decreases as you rev higher.
If you've never seen the IS350's power band, it has a strong HP curve all the way up to redline, and a wide flat torque curve as well ... in fact, torque remains strong from the low end, all the way up to 6000 RPM. Ward's themselves quote the 2GR-FSE as the current standard to beat when it comes to premium high output V6 engines.
The high rev design allows Nissan to extract more power out of the VQ35HR, but some sacrifices must be made. The 2GR-FSE, thanks to it's complex injection system, and state of the art V6 design allows it to be one big contradiction, that makes very little compromises.
Personally, I do not believe such a high rev engine should be put into a luxury car, unless it's some special sport version. Apart from fuel economy, and power, I believe the VQ35HR also won't be as smooth or refined as the 2GR-FSE.
The VQ35 is the result of evolution. It isn't very often that they build a totally new VQ. They may change a lot of components but design wise, the engine evolves slowly. That's not to say changes are insignificant. Nissan changes internals every other year to fall in line with where they want the engine to go. Lets be clear about one thing: dual symmetrical intakes and exhuast and a new block, with new internals are not insignificant changes. Just because they didnt use DI or change displacement doesn't mean the engien is essentially the same.
Having said all of that, I don't think anyone can say the VQ is the weakest point of any car that its installed in.
Think about that. It means their engineering efforts need to be spent elsewhere. Nissan (which I'll use in place of infiniti) receives many complains about their cars, like any other company. In the case of the G35 for example, while the VQ wasnt the weakest link, they did receive a lot of complaints that the engine seemed to run out of breath quickly. Oddly enough it seemed that most people (particularly enthusiasts) were willing to sacrifice engine torque on the low end, for more power on the top end. Nissan responded with the rev-up engine. The new VQ35HR makes similar torque as the nonrevup VQ35, only a little higher in the rpm range. Not a bad compromise imo, considering torque down there doesnt make your car fast. Horsepower does. Any driving enthusiast who wouldn't trade a couple lbft peak torque, and a few hundred rpm change in where that torque comes... for 25+hp at peak is either ignorant or lying to themselves.
In terms of response, I don't think anyone can say that a VQ doesn't give enough torque for daily driving. The new engine, despite the shift in power and higher revs vs its Lexus counterpart, makes similar torque. Lets face it: the new VQ is not going to make a G feel like a S2000. There will be enough torque.
As far as their design options and DI go, they could have gone other ways, so revving wasn't a requirement. The VQ25 is (and has been) direct injection. They could have done that. They could have also done the breathing work without stretching the powerband. Nismo builds engines that are over 340hp, with new heads and internals for instance. Matter of fact, enthusiasts in the G/Z community are building their cars for over 320hp with no head/internal work (unchanged rev range). They very obviously didn't have to rev the engine. Instead however, they chose to respond to what customers wanted. The new engine provides a lot more power than the original VQ, without 'running out of breath' without a major sacrifice in torque. The new engine isn't going to be tuned to the limit of its life either. People are making over 330hp (crank hp) on the original VQ35. This new engine, with improved variable timing, better airflow, better cooling and better rigidity will likely yield better results for not only NA tuning, but also FI........
..which brings me to another point: thave another car coming 10 months after the release of the VQ35HR that will essentially require the VQ35HR to be setup for very-high power/endurance racing. The current setup with the VQ35HR is also likely to be a stepping stone toward that end...
#77
#78
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You're only telling half the story:
IS350: 277 lb-ft @ 4800 RPM
G35: 268 lb -ft @ 5200 RPM
We've already seen the IS350's torque curve, and 90% of the torque is already available at 2000 RPM.
5200 RPM for peak torque, on paper, looks like a Honda engine. I won't jump to conclusions, but I doubt that the VQ35HR will have a flat torque curve beginning from 2000 RPM.
Both peak torque and peak HP are reached at higher revs for the G35 compared to the IS350, so my point still stands that the engine is being stretched. That's also not mentioning the fact that the G35 has less torque, which no doubt was a sacrifice made in order to reach that increased HP.
Sure, if you want to have a little fun, that's what the G35's high redline is for, and it further cements the G35 as being mainly about sport, and less so about luxury.
I also wouldn't be surprised if the G35 has a freer-flowing exhaust for maximum performance, compared with the IS350's restrictive exhaust, which a lot of people say restricts power by about 20HP.
I can't wait to see the dynos of the VQ35HR. It will be interesting to see how much power it puts down on the ground, and if the 2GR-FSE is actually underrated.
IS350: 277 lb-ft @ 4800 RPM
G35: 268 lb -ft @ 5200 RPM
We've already seen the IS350's torque curve, and 90% of the torque is already available at 2000 RPM.
5200 RPM for peak torque, on paper, looks like a Honda engine. I won't jump to conclusions, but I doubt that the VQ35HR will have a flat torque curve beginning from 2000 RPM.
Both peak torque and peak HP are reached at higher revs for the G35 compared to the IS350, so my point still stands that the engine is being stretched. That's also not mentioning the fact that the G35 has less torque, which no doubt was a sacrifice made in order to reach that increased HP.
Sure, if you want to have a little fun, that's what the G35's high redline is for, and it further cements the G35 as being mainly about sport, and less so about luxury.
I also wouldn't be surprised if the G35 has a freer-flowing exhaust for maximum performance, compared with the IS350's restrictive exhaust, which a lot of people say restricts power by about 20HP.
I can't wait to see the dynos of the VQ35HR. It will be interesting to see how much power it puts down on the ground, and if the 2GR-FSE is actually underrated.
Torque is not what will win races, and Nissan is building the engine to perform. In any case, 268lbft is Honda like??? WTF
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You are correct that the VQ is being built to perform and that the G is more oriented toward sport than the IS. I think that's the bottom line. I don't think its fair to say the engine's performance is being stretched thin though: The new engine is allegedly stronger and more free flowing than the last.
#79
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THe funny thing is we are arguing and 95% of these cars won't even be pushed how we are talking, not just the G35 but IS and 3......
Most will be autos and in the G35s case, b/c its a great value.
And 8-10% going to fleet sales.
The new G35 is a logical and good improvement over the previous model.
Though not sure why Infiniti changed the car in what 4 years? Luxury car companies don't make full changes that quick.
I think for the price, like the TL, value will continue to be a huge attraction. You are getting 306hp for 325 and IS 250 money if power and a larger size car and a good price is high on your list. That is a very, very powerful arguement.
Most will be autos and in the G35s case, b/c its a great value.
And 8-10% going to fleet sales.
The new G35 is a logical and good improvement over the previous model.
Though not sure why Infiniti changed the car in what 4 years? Luxury car companies don't make full changes that quick.
I think for the price, like the TL, value will continue to be a huge attraction. You are getting 306hp for 325 and IS 250 money if power and a larger size car and a good price is high on your list. That is a very, very powerful arguement.
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#80
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It is a good value, but the model's sales will suffer by not having a more efficient alternative (IS250 competitor). Mpg is a big selling point these days, and although all chatter on the forums is about the IS350, the IS250 is the volume seller.
I'm hoping they bring out a G25. There made a VQ25HR, no doubt to go into the 2007 Skyline 2.5. It wouldn't be that big a hassle to bring that car here.
A G25 will also weigh less and have better front/rear weight distribution, which would make it more nimble.
I'm hoping they bring out a G25. There made a VQ25HR, no doubt to go into the 2007 Skyline 2.5. It wouldn't be that big a hassle to bring that car here.
A G25 will also weigh less and have better front/rear weight distribution, which would make it more nimble.
#81
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I agree with Picus here. People don't want to drop major coin on a car and the got damn car changes ever 4 years. Hell we have seen some very long cycles SL damn near 20 years once, the 911, the GS was 8 years, the LS is usually 6, the ES keeps a steady 5 year cycle...
You want constant change, that is what Hondas, Toyotas and Kias are for....
You want constant change, that is what Hondas, Toyotas and Kias are for....
#82
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I think you can take it for granted that just about everyone here is oriented more to the performance side of the equation. When I bought my GS4 I thought it was one of the most ill handling highway cars ever. A set of bilsteins cured it but made it decidedly firm. When I put the same shocks on my wife's GS3, it felt like a buckboard. You are not in a safe or good handling car when you are bouncing off the headliner, as you would in a race car. I have owned many bimmers and could go back but I find their more recent cars to not just have safe handling but a downright rough ride. When you combine it with rock hard seats, it is not the kind of place I want to spend much time. Having said that, about the only Lexus that could be in my future and the decision will come down to the improvements they may or may not have made to the suspension. I could care less whether the thing will parallel park itself once a year or whether the passenger side rear seat passenger can stretch out. Then again, there are still people buying Town Cars and not just to turn them into limos. My point is that there isn't one suspension type that is perfect for everyone. That's all. Nothing seems to iritate supporters of certain models than the fact that someone could drive one of that makers cars and not fall in love it. Heh, it happens. The magazines have a car for what, a couple of weeks? What makes a car enjoyable for a couple of weeks isn't necessarily what makes it enjoyable day in, day out, for many years.![Smilie](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
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#83
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Just got the next issue of motortrend. Seems the new G35 has EXACTLY 306 hp and 268lb-ft of torque. 0-60 in 5.4 sec. Seems extremely close to the IS. They did a comparision to the BMW 330i and the the G35 came in second (like the IS). It's the "legendary" BMW feel that helped the BMW win. I don't really like the exterior of the new G35, the rear looks really bulbous and droopy. The interior of the G is also ..well...spartan and at the same time too many buttons cluttered around the nav area. Still LOVE my IS!! Wonder what happends when they compare the IS and the G35.
#85
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Must be referring to the reliability of ANY BMW. They are put together no better than what I put together floating in my toilet this morning... Granted, my opinion may be seriously biased based on my experiences owning a 745Li - notoriously the worst electrically problematic vehicle on the market today.
On a serious note, BMW's can handle. Yes, the 745Li was enormous, a "boat," to many out there... But it is a surprisingly very nimble boat - almost zero body roll in the turns. If you haven't test driven one, DON'T... You might be convinced to fork up the cash.
No doubt about it, BMW's can perform. Another thing they all have in common... Notice how they all smell exactly the same? Doesn't matter if you're in a 7, 5, or 3 series, they all have that distinct smell. Maybe that's the "legendary," aspect of the vehicle... the smell!
On a serious note, BMW's can handle. Yes, the 745Li was enormous, a "boat," to many out there... But it is a surprisingly very nimble boat - almost zero body roll in the turns. If you haven't test driven one, DON'T... You might be convinced to fork up the cash.
No doubt about it, BMW's can perform. Another thing they all have in common... Notice how they all smell exactly the same? Doesn't matter if you're in a 7, 5, or 3 series, they all have that distinct smell. Maybe that's the "legendary," aspect of the vehicle... the smell!
#86
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sorta interesting that both the new G35 and the 335 are posting 0-60 5.2 to 5.4 times...seems like the 3 cars are now all about evenly matched, although from C&D it seems the 335 is unrated and actually faster than the advertized 0-60 times...
#87
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Ah, the other thread is closed. I'll say it here.
NEVER, ever, EVER buy to own a BMW. If you ever consider it, lease it. Who gives a rat's a$$ about a warranty if it's in the shop every other week. Breakdowns = a whole lotta time = time you could use to earn more money = which means less money for you = more bills and more headaches. Therefore, BMW = a royal pain in the a$$ any way you look at it.
Lease BMW's. Never buy.
Now Toyota and Lexus? There's a reason there's an 00 4runner, an 04 LS430, and an 06 IS350 in my garage fully paid for. These things are almost bullet proof... Almost, but definitely close enough
NEVER, ever, EVER buy to own a BMW. If you ever consider it, lease it. Who gives a rat's a$$ about a warranty if it's in the shop every other week. Breakdowns = a whole lotta time = time you could use to earn more money = which means less money for you = more bills and more headaches. Therefore, BMW = a royal pain in the a$$ any way you look at it.
Lease BMW's. Never buy.
Now Toyota and Lexus? There's a reason there's an 00 4runner, an 04 LS430, and an 06 IS350 in my garage fully paid for. These things are almost bullet proof... Almost, but definitely close enough
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#88
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Sometimes I think the electronics and wiring are made of wet noodles.
#89
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Almost all the mags give high ratings to any bimmer in a comparo. Either bimmers are really head and shoulders above the other brands or the mag testers are oin dope...or getting some payola.
I have never driven a bimmer. Rode in a few but never drove one. I have got to try one out.
Reliability issues would keep me from ever buying one but I must experience this driving heaven everyone is always talking about.
I have never driven a bimmer. Rode in a few but never drove one. I have got to try one out.
Reliability issues would keep me from ever buying one but I must experience this driving heaven everyone is always talking about.
#90
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Just got the next issue of motortrend. Seems the new G35 has EXACTLY 306 hp and 268lb-ft of torque. 0-60 in 5.4 sec. Seems extremely close to the IS. They did a comparision to the BMW 330i and the the G35 came in second (like the IS). It's the "legendary" BMW feel that helped the BMW win. I don't really like the exterior of the new G35, the rear looks really bulbous and droopy. The interior of the G is also ..well...spartan and at the same time too many buttons cluttered around the nav area. Still LOVE my IS!! Wonder what happends when they compare the IS and the G35.