LexFather

You are comparing a newly revised 7 to the LS's final model year. Let's not forget the LS 430 was the sales champ in this segment I believe in 2001, 2002 2004 and 2005.

Clearly, you are biased against Lexus b/c you think someone people don't buy Lexus over BMW and we have TONS of members here that will prove otherwise.

Lexus does compete with BMW, please get over that.

TRDFantasy

Objectively speaking, IS performance numbers are very competitive with 3 Series. What IS lacks is the reputation and brand name of BMW, as well as the driving feel of the 3 Series. Lexus did not set out to copy BMW, so they will never imitate the feel of a BMW. Lexus is doing things their own way.

The driving feel of the IS can now be improved, because 2007 models have the VSC/VDIM cut-off switch. 2007 GS and 2007 LS also have cut-off switches, which should make more enthusiasts take notice, and make more mag reviewers smile.

TRDFantasy

Funny, you are comparing the past few months of sales? Why? Because it is convenient for you to prove your point, when enigma has pointed out LS has easily beaten 7 Series sales-wise up until Jan this year?

Look at the huge sales drop-off for the LS after December. The drop started in January, which is exactly the same month Lexus revealed the LS460 at the Detriot auto show. That is exactly why LS sales are down, and have nothing to do with 7 Series sales.

You're right, BMW has never been a big player with 7 Series, because they have not been successful at moving buyers from their lower models to their flagship. BMW's sales are quite bottom heavy, and people do not think prestige or luxury when they think BMW. People think of BMW mainly as sport or sport luxury. That is perception problem for BMW, as that will never help BMW get buyers in prestige luxury market.

BMW execs probably do worry that their 7 Series is only a small time player in the States.

If you do not think that IS sales have affected 3 Series sales, you are only fooling yourself. Go look at any major forum boards, and how many potential buyers constantly compare the two. 3 Series sales continue to increase despite the IS because of a number of other factors, like luxury car market expanding overall.

There is no need to name future BMW models. Lexus too has many future models coming, like new SC, new RX, new IS variants, hybrid LS, and not to mention Lexus supercar.

Lexus has not really put much focus for years onto their car lineup, but ever since 3GS last year, Lexus has been putting big focus on their cars, and you can bet it will start to affect everyone's sales.

-J-P-L-

Does anyone else get the hint that Chiawei is a BMW owner rather than Lexus owner?

Chiawei: You can support BMW all you want, but please present facts to backup your statements.

FrankyJ

wow... too many people are misunderstanding... WHO CARES WHAT THE SALES WERE IN THE PAST, SCREW IT... EVEN RIGHT NOW... the point i was trying ot make when i put this was that Lexus is moving up, and moving up fast, with a big hit like the IS and the soon to be homerun LS460/600 BMW and MB are not the only ones in the market right now. Lexus' are now being called by MANY "Currently the Best Cars Out" whether you agree or not is an opinion.

So People, BMW vs MB vs Lexus will always be like that... but give Lexus its credit, its doing great

encore888

Well said!

chiawei

7 went through its final face lift with slight upgrade V8. It is also entering its final stage of existence. Hence it is in the similar situation as LS.

2ndly, 7 series was never BMW's bread butter. In fact it is something that really goes against BMW's strategy hence you will never see a M for the 7. Because it is big and cumbersome and unlike what BMW has for rest of its lineup.

I am biased? Like I have said, the number shows it. IS have huge impact on the sales of the C-class but on the 3 series. Same holds true for the GS. There are going to be few cases in which lexus owner will choose it over BMW. But the overall market trend is very clearly defined by the actual number.

Whether you like it or not, IS sales sucess is build on C-class pain right now. Hence my comment is more than justified. Unless you can come up with a market trend that shows other wise.

Lexus wants to competes against BMW. But it does not mean its product actually competes with BMW, since the IS and 3 series number clearly shows that they don't effect each other. Competition exist only when competitors in this segment are impacted by each other's presence. So far, the effect on 3 series with IS's introduction is none.

chiawei

1. I only brought up the last 8 months or so of sales is simply to prove a point that 7 series has indeed beat LS.

I also pointed out that the 7 has never been a major player in this segment. But the fact still remain that this new 7 has performed much better than its predecessor.

Like i have said, 7 series is not really BMW's forte. Probably never will since they are simply not good at building a soft luxury car. And its buyer are not interested in buying a 7 series.

My wife and mother in law asked me why I love my $100k M5 so much, but it rides like crap, interior is not luxurious. But I am not looking to buy a luxury car on wheels. A lot of high end BMW owner either moved to P or F car (other exotic) after the M. But they rarely consider cars such as LS/S/7 since it really it not what they are looking for.

I also stated it clearly. IS sales has not influenced 3 sales, there are always going to be cases in which someone chooses IS over 3 series. But to have influence, IS must show it have negative impact on the 3 series. The fact is that 3 series has increased its market share even with IS selling hot. There is nothing wrong with this statement. Unless you can show me that 3 series sales dropped since IS introduction, you can't state that IS sales has influenced 3 sales, because the reverse is true. Several cases on a discussion board does not equates a market trend.

The truth is that E90 sales growth year over year is 16.7%. You can't dispute that as that is hard fact. The only car in this segment that showed a huge decline with introduction of IS is the C-class. Again, this is based on fact, whether you accepted it or not.

encore888

Wrong, the facelift appeared this year (2006). The LS' facelift was in 2004. 2 years in a 5-year cycle makes a big difference.

IS sales success is built upon a large number of factors. I can see sales coming from a large number of first-time Lexus buyers who have moved into the luxury market for the first time. These are sales that would otherwise have spread to the other existing cars (3-series, TL, etc). For the strongest players in the market (3-series, TL), they have a large following (or very effective pricing strategy) that keeps their numbers up.

You can show a relationship, and it would seem that C-class sales have declined as the IS was introduced. But the C-class is also in the end of its cycle. And just like any correlation, CAUSALITY cannot be determined. You can say two points appear to have a relationship, but you cannot definitively prove that one caused the other. It is supposition.

We need more data on the statistics of the New IS owners...not just speculation.

Meanwhile you keep insinuating things about how BMW is an up-and-comer, Lexus is not doing so well as BMW 3-series sales have not dropped, but it is a very biased conclusion to look at things all one way. The LS has beaten and will continue to beat the 7-series on sales; the IS has gone from 10-1 to over 2-1 sales margin difference; and when the ES/IS are considered, Lexus is by far a leader in the entry luxury market. Individually, IS is doing great and the new ES doing great as well.

Sure Lexus would like to do better, there's always room for improvement.

chiawei

Do you read what I said?

The 7 went through its final facelift and minor upgrade last year (2006 model) but it was introduced early. E66 has been around since 2002, which is one year after the LS. From timeline point of view, the 2006 E66 is very similar to what LS is going though last year. The new 7 is about one year away from introduction. Again about one year after the new LS.

Please remember the LS and 7 are all on 6 year life cycle, not 5. Face lift now occurs a 4th year.

Big difference? Don't think so, as the 7 and LS are now on similar time path.


Excuse me.

So how are you going to show that. Based on words of the IS owners of this forum. Or based on the actual market number.

Basic statistics will tell you that the larget the sample size, the less biased the result are.

In addition, my comment was straight based on the actual market number not as TRDfantasy claimed that he saw several members that choose IS over 3 series equates that the IS have impact on the 3 series sales. My beef is with his conclusion is drawn based on a such minor sample size of public forum over actual market trend which involved entire market segment sample size.

chiawei

????

All i said that was BMW has a new X5 to compete with RX, which it has never challenged. I was interested to see what this will impact the RX.

I have also said that lexus has not done well against BMW cars in almost every segement it compete directly. Show me how this is not true statement? Other than the 7 series, Lexus has no effect on the BMW car line up.

BMW has no ES competitor, hence it is giving up 8k in monthly sales to lexus.

Lexus has trumped BMW on SUV market with monthly sales volume double of combine X3 and X5.

None of you has answered my questions.

1. Lexus is expanding the IS range to add a M3 competitor and a coupe. But IS sedan has failed to slow down the much weaker and more expansive retail E90 sedan. Why does everyone think that IS coupe and V8 will beat out newly introduced E92 with stronger engine?

This is a valid question. The comment i made is very straight forward and there is no need to twist it.

2. My other question is also quiet valid and one that Lexus is probably going to be very concerned as well. RX has been a bread and butter car for lexus. Now BMW is going after that segment with a very excellent design in the X5. What would the effect be on the RX with the new X5.

Just as all of you are running away with imagination of expansion of IS lineup will have effect on E90/E92, why can't i turn the table and ask you guys the same question. Why can't E70 take sales away from the RX?

Again valid question.

encore888

You brought up the 7 series to crow about how it beat the LS this year. Similar time path? One is older by 2 years post-refresh; one has a New model already announced and shown in the press. You can boast that the 7 series beat the LS thus far this year, but it's a moot point. The real reason the LS sales are down, as TRDFantasy said, is because the LS 460 was unveiled in January and buyers are waiting for that.

7-series beat the LS this year? So what.

Sure, I agree that anecdotal evidence has its limitations. But you are describing a correlation and assuming causality, which basic logic and scienitific reasoning says is invalid as proof. Your CLAIM that the C-class is the reason the IS sales have gone up is a THEORY, not FACT. I don't agree that that is the main reason--a supporting reason, yes, but not the main reason. The C-class is dying on its own.

As for the 3-series, the IS is just 3 sedan variants vs. the 3-series sedan variants, long established, wagons, coupes, and M variants. Furthermore, the 3-series is the bread and butter of BMW--the focus of its advertisements, the centerpiece of its dealerships. It really is the Camry or Corolla of the BMW dealership. It's going to take a lot more variants and more time to make a dent--if at all.

But that doesn't mean that BMW isn't watching. Their incentives, their marketing strategy--it can all be adjusted based on the threat from the IS. Fact is, if the 3-series dies, BMW dies. And you can bet they will do everything to keep that from happening.

encore888

My guess? It won't. The X5 is way bigger and more expensive.

That is blatant bias. The IS is doing well, #3 in its segment, the GS is doing ok, #3 in its segment. That is fine. "Not done well" is pro-BMW spin.

That's a pretty arrogant statement. It assumes that if BMW simply fielded an ES competitor, it would gain 8,000 monthly sales. Hardly.

People have sidestepped those questions because they stem from a pro-BMW bias. Jumping up and down with claims that 'BMW sales haven't gone down! BMW sales haven't gone down! Lexus is a failure" is not very credible. There's room in the market for both competitors, and every new sale Lexus makes is another step into expanding the overall Lexus market share. BMW is expanding too, in some areas--these are the #1 and #2 players in the segment.

The IS has succeeded in giving Lexus a major foothold in the lucrative US entry sport luxury segment. Why does everybody think the IS coupe and V8 will beat out? I dunno, maybe better track times? Maybe a better, more comfortable cockpit? Not everything is just sales figures and BMW feel. The IS coupe and V8 will challenge the Bavarians in key areas that academics and enthusiasts will talk about. Hopefully it will attract more buyers to the Lexus brand. But it's only fun to talk about the relatively small numbers of people that will be dissuaded from either brand--their priorities are different.

Probably a watered-down effect of what the IS has had on the 3-series. Basically, the X5 will probably improve its sales figures, but have negligble effects on the RX.

Plus it's pretty silly to compare the X5; the RX is sized in between the X3 and X5 IIRC.

BMW's own research shows 75% of luxury customers don't look at BMW. I'm one of them--and I've looked at every single other luxury brand except them. They had a juggernaut with the 3-series, and still do. But when the luxury market is growing xx%, and the 3-series seeks yty growth of x%, they have to take into account that there's a new player in the segment, and their fight to maintain and grow market share got that much tougher.

chiawei

No one is not giving lexus credit for what they have done. But one has to be realistic on where the compeition and market gain is coming from.

Lexus has done very well against DCX but so far other than the 7 series (which BMW was never a big player to begin with) it really has done nothing with BMW cars.

Don't you think lexus wouldn't want a piece of BMW's pie. Sure it does. But so far it has failed miserably with GS and IS going against the 5 and 3. Lexus has good intention with the IS. But on execution it misses by a mile of what owners of 5 and 3 are looking for.

I had all the intention to switch my wife from the CLK back to the IS (which I had an 01 IS300, and that was a fun car to drive). But the 2IS steering was horrible when both wife and I drove it during taste of lexus last year. That car was equipped with michellin PS2 (which is one of the best tires on dry in the market). But that IS350 leaned heavily on side to side. Steering response is extremely poor. We both left totally turned off by the new IS.

All I am saying is that lexus has a long way to ago to capture BMW's customers. In process they lost two ex-lexus customers to BMW. Ever since owning my 1st BMW in 2001, I have never gone back to lexus. Lexus does make great cars. But it simply too plain for me. I tried to give lexus other shots to win me back. But the new GS was a dissappointment to me. So i went with the M45 as daily driver to go with my M5.

My point is sample. Japanese car are more reliable than their german counter part (not by much, but I will accept the fact that japanese car are more reliable). But they don't have to be plain like lexus made them into. This gets worse and worse. I don't like the 2IS. The original IS despite being small and weak. It was actually fun to toss around. But the new 2IS is simply a confused car. The 2IS has so much potential but lexus killed it. That's why I am not going back to lexus.

Lexus needs to show me that they want to earn my money. Who wouldn't want a 500HP car that handles great with great reliability. But I am not going to give up great handling to get a a car that would last me forever.

I am happy IS is coming with V8. But the rest of package is simply not there. Unless lexus gets serious with suspension tuning and steering response, I still wouldn't pick IS500 over M3. I buy M cars because it is a blast to drive. If i need a daily driver, I will be more than happy with a camry/sienna or M45 etc. I don't need to spend $70k to buy a reliable car when $30k camry V6 can do the job. For $70k or more, I would like a car that provide me extra fun not an appliance like personality.

Bean

iTrader: (1)

To throw some flies in your ointment and make your argument totally null and void.

I drive by my Lexus dealer and I see no IS's on the lots. In fact I was told their entire years batch of IS350s is presold. You have to get in line to get even a IS250, you can't get one off the lot; and the wait time is around 2-3 months just for a IS250.

Right across the street is a BMW dealership, and there are ROWS AND ROWS of 3-series.

Just like the new Camry total sales not showing what it could POSSIBLY be if they actually had accessible inventory; the IS is not available easily in most locations and this hurts sales obviously.

Not everything on paper is how it works in real life.