Edmunds First Drive: 07 Acura TL Type-S (Update: TCC Review p. 2)
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Still crap? Please define "crap".
And "FWD Sport Sedan" is not an oxymoron, as the TL has proven itself a competitor to (and in many ways superior to) its RWD competition. Please try to stop being so narrow-minded.
And "FWD Sport Sedan" is not an oxymoron, as the TL has proven itself a competitor to (and in many ways superior to) its RWD competition. Please try to stop being so narrow-minded.
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I had a 98 TL. It was a great car that never complained or broke down. My brother had a CL type S and it moved. I also had a 93.5 GSR. Honda knows how to make FWD cars fun. If I had a choice, I might take one of these over a IS because I need four adult sized seats. I would take it over a G35 because Infiniti interiors are cheap. I would take it over a 3 series because of BMW quality issues. Only car I might take over a TL type S is a ES 350.
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BTW, BMW has a message for you:
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TCC Tests Drive TL & TL Type-S
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http://www.thecarconnection.com/Vehi...84.A10839.html
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A lot of folks - TheCarConnection's editors included - have considered the mid-range TL Acura's coolest car since its 2004 redesign. This is due to its crisp Euro styling, its equally crisp dynamics, and its ground-breaking ELS surround-sound audio system. Buyers apparently have agreed, since the TL has been Acura's best-selling vehicle since then at roughly 76,000 U.S. units annually.
For 2007, TL gets honed and sharpened, and - heads up, enthusiasts - the higher-performance Type-S returns to take on BMW's 3-Series and every other entry aspiring to that throne. With a 3.5-liter V-6 pumping 286 eager horses and 256 lb-ft of torque through a choice of six-speed manual or five-speed automatic, the latter with fast-responding steering wheel paddle shifts, it's fully capable of doing that…except for one thing, which we'll get to later.
Acura is deadly serious in its quest to expand the TL's image and reach from its current high-tech mid-size luxury position to where it can woo true performance buyers. As proof, it claims better 0-60, quarter-mile and 50-75-mph acceleration for the '07 Type-S vs. the (2006) BMW 330 and Infiniti G35, and superior handling (slalom speed) vs. those two and the Lexus IS 350. (It does not claim it will out-drag the 306-hp IS350 or BMW's new 300-hp supercharged 330i, because it won't). With 0-60 capability in the sub-six-second range with the manual, this hot new Type-S lands well in the ballpark even as the bar keeps moving upward. But there's that one thing, which we'll get to later.
Sharpened TL
For those not into more serious performance, the regular TL improves from good to better with meaningful refinements for 2007. Motivated by a 3.2-liter 258-hp version of the same VTEC V-6 mated to the 5-speed automatic (no available manual or paddle shifts), it delivers 0-60 performance in the low-seven-second range and gets a somewhat smoother ride without losing its tightly connected handling and feel.
With an exterior theme described by Design Principal Engineer Philip LaPointe as "Laser Tension," which he defines as "taut, aggressive, poised and intense," its '07 styling changes are subtle. The most obvious differences are satin chrome crossbars bisecting the lower air intakes and fog lamps in their outer corners.
Inside, the theme is "Exotic Industrial" with colors and trims defined as "Bauhaus with Attitude." LaPointe says that translates to "modern metal and dark exotic woods with more textures and contrasts." We'd call it modern handsome and functional, with more precise-looking gauges behind a new three-spoke steering wheel, with oft-used controls on and between its spokes, and most everything else concentrated in the center stack. Audiophiles and commuters will appreciate the Acura/ELS 8-speaker premium surround-sound with 6-disc CD/DVD-Audio, DTS and Dolby Pro Logic II - updated to play WMA and MP3 - the satellite-linked navigation with real-time traffic info (standard on Type-S), and the Bluetooth hands-free communications link, which will quickly synch your cellphone address book with the car.
Type-S stunner
The Type-S, happily reborn after a three-year hiatus, is a pleasant surprise and a genuine hoot to pilot aggressively on twisty two-lanes. With available summer tires and either the close-ratio manual or the quick-shifting manumatic, its performance is strong, its grip tenacious, its higher-effort steering quick and precise and its big four-piston Brembo brakes truly impressive. We believe it's fully competitive in its entry performance luxury class, as all-around good as any, and better than most…but for that one thing, which we'll get to later.
The Type-S's 11 percent stronger engine gets that way through an eight-percent boost in displacement (from 3.2 liters to 3.5 liters), thanks to a seven-millimeter longer stroke, slightly larger intake valves with increased lift and duration and 14-percent freer exhaust flow. Its engine is also lighter via hollow camshafts and judicious use of lightweight materials, which improves front-to-rear weight balance, and its double-wishbone front and multi-link rear suspensions are retuned with stiffer springs, dampers, and stabilizer bars to optimize both handling and stability.
The Type-S' exterior look is distinguished from the TL's by specific front and rear fascias with unique bumpers, black chrome trim, wider side sills, racing-inspired ten-spoke alloy wheels, and big quad-outlet tailpipes (love those pipes!). Inside, it gets terrific added-lateral-support sport seats, red (vs. the TL's blue) ambient lighting, Type-S logos on the steering wheel and seatbacks, and Active Noise Cancellation (ANC). ANC uses microphones in the headliner to sense powertrain booming noises (mostly from the larger engine), which the car's sound then system "cancels" by generating synchronized opposite-amplitude sound waves.
The one thing
So what is that one thing, which will indeed damage this excellent new TL Type-S' chances in its effort to compete head-to-head with BMW 3, Lexus IS, and Infiniti G35? You guessed it…front-wheel drive. Rightly or wrongly (depending on geographic location and weather), the majority of serious performance buyers prefer the feel and response they get from having their drive wheels out back. Most won't accept fwd performance, no matter how strong or well refined.
Then again, Audi's doing reasonably well with front-drive and available high-performance all-wheel drive. Maybe that is Acura's ultimate answer, and Audi its most natural target.
Honda's luxury division aims to move some 70,000 Acura TLs this year in North America, at prices ranging from $34,000-$39,000, and believes about 40 percent will be Type-S models. Despite that one key handicap, we wouldn't bet against it. It's really that good.
For 2007, TL gets honed and sharpened, and - heads up, enthusiasts - the higher-performance Type-S returns to take on BMW's 3-Series and every other entry aspiring to that throne. With a 3.5-liter V-6 pumping 286 eager horses and 256 lb-ft of torque through a choice of six-speed manual or five-speed automatic, the latter with fast-responding steering wheel paddle shifts, it's fully capable of doing that…except for one thing, which we'll get to later.
Acura is deadly serious in its quest to expand the TL's image and reach from its current high-tech mid-size luxury position to where it can woo true performance buyers. As proof, it claims better 0-60, quarter-mile and 50-75-mph acceleration for the '07 Type-S vs. the (2006) BMW 330 and Infiniti G35, and superior handling (slalom speed) vs. those two and the Lexus IS 350. (It does not claim it will out-drag the 306-hp IS350 or BMW's new 300-hp supercharged 330i, because it won't). With 0-60 capability in the sub-six-second range with the manual, this hot new Type-S lands well in the ballpark even as the bar keeps moving upward. But there's that one thing, which we'll get to later.
Sharpened TL
For those not into more serious performance, the regular TL improves from good to better with meaningful refinements for 2007. Motivated by a 3.2-liter 258-hp version of the same VTEC V-6 mated to the 5-speed automatic (no available manual or paddle shifts), it delivers 0-60 performance in the low-seven-second range and gets a somewhat smoother ride without losing its tightly connected handling and feel.
With an exterior theme described by Design Principal Engineer Philip LaPointe as "Laser Tension," which he defines as "taut, aggressive, poised and intense," its '07 styling changes are subtle. The most obvious differences are satin chrome crossbars bisecting the lower air intakes and fog lamps in their outer corners.
Inside, the theme is "Exotic Industrial" with colors and trims defined as "Bauhaus with Attitude." LaPointe says that translates to "modern metal and dark exotic woods with more textures and contrasts." We'd call it modern handsome and functional, with more precise-looking gauges behind a new three-spoke steering wheel, with oft-used controls on and between its spokes, and most everything else concentrated in the center stack. Audiophiles and commuters will appreciate the Acura/ELS 8-speaker premium surround-sound with 6-disc CD/DVD-Audio, DTS and Dolby Pro Logic II - updated to play WMA and MP3 - the satellite-linked navigation with real-time traffic info (standard on Type-S), and the Bluetooth hands-free communications link, which will quickly synch your cellphone address book with the car.
Type-S stunner
The Type-S, happily reborn after a three-year hiatus, is a pleasant surprise and a genuine hoot to pilot aggressively on twisty two-lanes. With available summer tires and either the close-ratio manual or the quick-shifting manumatic, its performance is strong, its grip tenacious, its higher-effort steering quick and precise and its big four-piston Brembo brakes truly impressive. We believe it's fully competitive in its entry performance luxury class, as all-around good as any, and better than most…but for that one thing, which we'll get to later.
The Type-S's 11 percent stronger engine gets that way through an eight-percent boost in displacement (from 3.2 liters to 3.5 liters), thanks to a seven-millimeter longer stroke, slightly larger intake valves with increased lift and duration and 14-percent freer exhaust flow. Its engine is also lighter via hollow camshafts and judicious use of lightweight materials, which improves front-to-rear weight balance, and its double-wishbone front and multi-link rear suspensions are retuned with stiffer springs, dampers, and stabilizer bars to optimize both handling and stability.
The Type-S' exterior look is distinguished from the TL's by specific front and rear fascias with unique bumpers, black chrome trim, wider side sills, racing-inspired ten-spoke alloy wheels, and big quad-outlet tailpipes (love those pipes!). Inside, it gets terrific added-lateral-support sport seats, red (vs. the TL's blue) ambient lighting, Type-S logos on the steering wheel and seatbacks, and Active Noise Cancellation (ANC). ANC uses microphones in the headliner to sense powertrain booming noises (mostly from the larger engine), which the car's sound then system "cancels" by generating synchronized opposite-amplitude sound waves.
The one thing
So what is that one thing, which will indeed damage this excellent new TL Type-S' chances in its effort to compete head-to-head with BMW 3, Lexus IS, and Infiniti G35? You guessed it…front-wheel drive. Rightly or wrongly (depending on geographic location and weather), the majority of serious performance buyers prefer the feel and response they get from having their drive wheels out back. Most won't accept fwd performance, no matter how strong or well refined.
Then again, Audi's doing reasonably well with front-drive and available high-performance all-wheel drive. Maybe that is Acura's ultimate answer, and Audi its most natural target.
Honda's luxury division aims to move some 70,000 Acura TLs this year in North America, at prices ranging from $34,000-$39,000, and believes about 40 percent will be Type-S models. Despite that one key handicap, we wouldn't bet against it. It's really that good.
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LOL, who equates FWD with performance besides Acura? "FWD Sport Sedan" is indeed an oxymoron. I'm not being narrow-minded it's just the way things are. Like why the sky is blue or why the sun rises in the east and sets in the west
It just is. Does Porsche make a sporty FWD? Does BMW? Does MB? Does Lexus?
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Everyone has an opinion and rightfully so. But I for one respect opinions that are supported by scientific data and logical reasoning.
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Before you get fancy about giving me lecture about what LSD does, go real life driving. Trying to steer and put the power down to the ground at the same time really doesn't work well. It has been proven, and it came down to general consensus that putting both workload into 2 wheels isn't the most performance oriented option. Its a common sense.
Indeed, like someone said, it is correct to say, "Honda makes very fun FWDs". Im coming from 4 years of honda ownership. Im a hardcore honda fan and sometimes I think they make better cars than fancy lexus.
Still, this is just weird. but hey, you know what, you have your opinions and I have mine. I respect that, and at the end, whatever floats your boat.
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This is a logical fallacy
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/app...opularity.html
Everyone has an opinion and rightfully so. But I for one respect opinions that are supported by scientific data and logical reasoning.
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/app...opularity.html
Everyone has an opinion and rightfully so. But I for one respect opinions that are supported by scientific data and logical reasoning.
Edmunds.com:
Despite its practical advantages, FWD has several disadvantages when related to vehicle performance. First of all, since vehicle weight shifts to the rear of a car during hard acceleration, FWD cars will always be fighting a losing battle when it comes to straight-line acceleration. Handling performance also suffers on FWD platforms since the option of using "throttle-induced oversteer" or sliding the rear end doesn't exist (unless you get really creative with the emergency brake).In the end FWD is a very practical way to power a vehicle but its inherent design is contradictory to performance. Look at it this way: Your car came with four wheels, why put the stress of steering, braking, and acceleration on only two of them?
During acceleration, for example, although front drive provides more traction the instant you press the throttle, that advantage diminishes as soon as the car begins to accelerate. This action is caused by the inertia of the car’s center of gravity that is about a foot and a half above the pavement. Commonly called “weight transfer,” this effect on an Acura TSX, which has about 60 percent of its weight on its front wheels when standing still, shifts more than 300 pounds from its front to its rear wheels under hard acceleration in first gear.
The BMW 325i, similar to the TSX in size and performance, has a nearly 50/50 weight split. When accelerating, it undergoes a similar front-to-rear load transfer. But whereas traction in the TSX decreases about 20 percent under hard acceleration, in the 325, it increases by a similar amount. Under braking, a similar load shift occurs, only this time it’s from the rear tires toward the fronts. With a front-drive car, this means that during maximum braking the front tires might be doing more than 80 percent of the stopping. A more even distribution of braking force would be beneficial, which is why rear-heavy cars such as Porsche 911s always stop very well. Obviously, the forward weight bias of front-drive cars is not helpful.
Nor does it help in cornering, where an equal weight distribution works best. In fact, since so much cornering takes place in combination with some acceleration, a rearward weight bias is advantageous, particularly when combined with larger rear tires. A mid-engine layout provides this configuration, which is why it is chosen by all race-car builders when the rules permit.
The BMW 325i, similar to the TSX in size and performance, has a nearly 50/50 weight split. When accelerating, it undergoes a similar front-to-rear load transfer. But whereas traction in the TSX decreases about 20 percent under hard acceleration, in the 325, it increases by a similar amount. Under braking, a similar load shift occurs, only this time it’s from the rear tires toward the fronts. With a front-drive car, this means that during maximum braking the front tires might be doing more than 80 percent of the stopping. A more even distribution of braking force would be beneficial, which is why rear-heavy cars such as Porsche 911s always stop very well. Obviously, the forward weight bias of front-drive cars is not helpful.
Nor does it help in cornering, where an equal weight distribution works best. In fact, since so much cornering takes place in combination with some acceleration, a rearward weight bias is advantageous, particularly when combined with larger rear tires. A mid-engine layout provides this configuration, which is why it is chosen by all race-car builders when the rules permit.
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Hey lux.sh are there any other BMW ads besides the frog and the hare? I've only seen the hare but that frog is hilarious
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Did you even read the review before conveniantly ignore the following part?
Putting the power down
You might suspect a front-driver with 256 lb-ft of twisting torque to be a tarmac-nibbling handful and it would have been had it not also included a helical-gear-type limited-slip differential (LSD) in the six-speed manual transmission. This long-standing torque-steer-reduction scheme works by dividing the driving force more equally between the two front wheels.
In the case of the TL Type-S, it works very well. The only time we noticed the steering affected by the throttle was at the very top of both 1st and 2nd gear under full throttle. Otherwise, the car's cornering was tack-sharp both off and on the gas. The LSD also does an admirable job of diminishing understeer.
You might suspect a front-driver with 256 lb-ft of twisting torque to be a tarmac-nibbling handful and it would have been had it not also included a helical-gear-type limited-slip differential (LSD) in the six-speed manual transmission. This long-standing torque-steer-reduction scheme works by dividing the driving force more equally between the two front wheels.
In the case of the TL Type-S, it works very well. The only time we noticed the steering affected by the throttle was at the very top of both 1st and 2nd gear under full throttle. Otherwise, the car's cornering was tack-sharp both off and on the gas. The LSD also does an admirable job of diminishing understeer.
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Last edited by TunedRX300; 09-09-06 at 12:34 PM.
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There is a tiny fraction of the population who can actually use the increased performance potential of a RWD vehicle, though not often on normal street driving. There is a far larger fraction, though, that can glom onto simple statements. "Apple is better than PC", "LCD is better than plasma", etc. The truth is always much more complicated, and the results more fuzzy than those people would like.
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It is admirable to an extent to see Acura push the FWD boundaries with this car. It also shows their complete inability to understand what the leaders actually do compared to them i.e stubborness.
I would prefer to see the TL stay ES 350ish, as selling 60-70k units a year clearly proves they know what people want. The TL has been a tremedous hit for the brand.
The sportier this car gets, the more I scratch my head as only the die-hard Acura or Honda guys will buy this and argue its as good dynamically as the RWD competiton, I.E, damn near EVERYONE ELSE (3, IS, C, G35).
Also for 39k, I dunno.
If this car is 39k WITHOUT the rumored SH-AWD, then when or if the TL gets SH-AWD, it will be a near 45k car and we know what happens to Acura at that price point.
I would prefer to see the TL stay ES 350ish, as selling 60-70k units a year clearly proves they know what people want. The TL has been a tremedous hit for the brand.
The sportier this car gets, the more I scratch my head as only the die-hard Acura or Honda guys will buy this and argue its as good dynamically as the RWD competiton, I.E, damn near EVERYONE ELSE (3, IS, C, G35).
Also for 39k, I dunno.
If this car is 39k WITHOUT the rumored SH-AWD, then when or if the TL gets SH-AWD, it will be a near 45k car and we know what happens to Acura at that price point.