How do I give my car soul? (I needed a good laugh)
10-26-06, 05:09 AM
#61
What you point out is right on. I wasn't contesting what you wrote because I thought you were wrong. I contested what you wrote and what everyone else wrote. You have no idea how many times I hit backspace on my keyboard only because a plethora of thoughts pillaged my head with the "what about this" and "well maybe that's". I was doing a lil q&a with myself while typing ( I know, I might have a problem).
The topic of cars with souls or the lack thereof is VERY subjective. So maybe someone can say that a Lexus has no soul, at the same time I can also say that cars of yesteryear might have LOST that very same soul today. Im not impressed by 300 c's, C classes, Chevy Impalas of today, pontiac GTO (australian Monaro by the way) which many would concur that had this "soul" which is spoken of. They just arent the same from their origins.
So maybe my girl has no soul.
Maybe its because she sold it to a certain someone or thing.
She's a pretty dirty girl i tell ya.
Maybe thats why she's beg and begs to be beaten down with a pedal so she can fly.
The topic of cars with souls or the lack thereof is VERY subjective. So maybe someone can say that a Lexus has no soul, at the same time I can also say that cars of yesteryear might have LOST that very same soul today. Im not impressed by 300 c's, C classes, Chevy Impalas of today, pontiac GTO (australian Monaro by the way) which many would concur that had this "soul" which is spoken of. They just arent the same from their origins.
So maybe my girl has no soul.
Maybe its because she sold it to a certain someone or thing.
She's a pretty dirty girl i tell ya.
Maybe thats why she's beg and begs to be beaten down with a pedal so she can fly.
10-26-06, 07:12 AM
#63
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What you point out is right on. I wasn't contesting what you wrote because I thought you were wrong. I contested what you wrote and what everyone else wrote. You have no idea how many times I hit backspace on my keyboard only because a plethora of thoughts pillaged my head with the "what about this" and "well maybe that's". I was doing a lil q&a with myself while typing ( I know, I might have a problem).
The topic of cars with souls or the lack thereof is VERY subjective. So maybe someone can say that a Lexus has no soul, at the same time I can also say that cars of yesteryear might have LOST that very same soul today. Im not impressed by 300 c's, C classes, Chevy Impalas of today, pontiac GTO (australian Monaro by the way) which many would concur that had this "soul" which is spoken of. They just arent the same from their origins.
So maybe my girl has no soul.
Maybe its because she sold it to a certain someone or thing.
She's a pretty dirty girl i tell ya.
Maybe thats why she's beg and begs to be beaten down with a pedal so she can fly.
The topic of cars with souls or the lack thereof is VERY subjective. So maybe someone can say that a Lexus has no soul, at the same time I can also say that cars of yesteryear might have LOST that very same soul today. Im not impressed by 300 c's, C classes, Chevy Impalas of today, pontiac GTO (australian Monaro by the way) which many would concur that had this "soul" which is spoken of. They just arent the same from their origins.
So maybe my girl has no soul.
Maybe its because she sold it to a certain someone or thing.
She's a pretty dirty girl i tell ya.
Maybe thats why she's beg and begs to be beaten down with a pedal so she can fly.
10-27-06, 02:03 PM
#64
A C-class to me is very BOOOOOORING. Maybe the AMG version might be fun. I hear about Mercs having soul and what not. The C? No soul to me. None at all. Thats pretty much where badging comes into play. The S-class though? Now at first I was pretty skeptic but I like the S class and thinks it continues to have soul.
10-27-06, 02:08 PM
#65
Lexus Champion
Sorry i should have elaborated a lil more.
A C-class to me is very BOOOOOORING. Maybe the AMG version might be fun. I hear about Mercs having soul and what not. The C? No soul to me. None at all. Thats pretty much where badging comes into play. The S-class though? Now at first I was pretty skeptic but I like the S class and thinks it continues to have soul.
A C-class to me is very BOOOOOORING. Maybe the AMG version might be fun. I hear about Mercs having soul and what not. The C? No soul to me. None at all. Thats pretty much where badging comes into play. The S-class though? Now at first I was pretty skeptic but I like the S class and thinks it continues to have soul.
People here like it because they get a star on their hood for cheap and it impresses people who don't know any better.
The 2.3 liter is an improvement but man that old 2.4 liter was ROUGH around the edges.
10-29-06, 10:27 PM
#66
Heres another take from someone pretty young (early 20s, as I think someone's age is reflective on their interpretation of subjective things like "soul"). Only cars that are special have a soul.
When you walk up to your car do you think "man, this is special." Sure when your car is new, but I doubt many, after a while of owning their car, will say "man, my 325i is special." What about the IS350? Sure its fun, but its still just a car. Its different when you compare it to say, a Ferrari. Its different for a Morgan. Why? Because when people see it, their attention is grabbed for that moment. It stirs others souls. The 3 series? The IS? GS, E, 5 series? They are all in one way or another clones of each other, coupled to the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of the same one out there. The 335i handles real nice, but does it give it soul? Is it that much more special than an Evo9 or WRX STI? Those cars handle real nice too. People wont say "wow, I saw an STI" or "man, a 335i." Exception: when its new no one else has one just yet. This is the test of time.
The Pagani Zonda. It makes people go to the forums and say, "man I saw one today and it was awesome." People create souls for the car because, well, cars are machines. So even though its just a technicality, people give cars souls. Its that connection. The reason its so subjective? Because to some of us that little vibration makes your GS special. But others wont agree because vibrations dont cut. Nor does exhaust noise. Everyone can have loud exhausts or a shaky car. But to have a car that stirs you and everyone around you, that car has soul and most would agree.
A 67 Shelby Mustang. Im sure it handles like crap, but any one of you would say "wow, nice" if you saw one. Its special and its rare. That fact alone doesn't cut it, but its other peoples reaction that creates a buzz.
In truth wikiality plays a big role. Its hard to gauge on forums because everyone who posts is somewhat an enthusiast, so everyone would have their bias. Drive a 330 or Corvette down the street, you might get some people to look at it. Drive a Ferrari down a street, people WILL look at it. Its that feeling you get when you see a Zonda or a CCX parked or coming at you.
When you walk up to your car do you think "man, this is special." Sure when your car is new, but I doubt many, after a while of owning their car, will say "man, my 325i is special." What about the IS350? Sure its fun, but its still just a car. Its different when you compare it to say, a Ferrari. Its different for a Morgan. Why? Because when people see it, their attention is grabbed for that moment. It stirs others souls. The 3 series? The IS? GS, E, 5 series? They are all in one way or another clones of each other, coupled to the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of the same one out there. The 335i handles real nice, but does it give it soul? Is it that much more special than an Evo9 or WRX STI? Those cars handle real nice too. People wont say "wow, I saw an STI" or "man, a 335i." Exception: when its new no one else has one just yet. This is the test of time.
The Pagani Zonda. It makes people go to the forums and say, "man I saw one today and it was awesome." People create souls for the car because, well, cars are machines. So even though its just a technicality, people give cars souls. Its that connection. The reason its so subjective? Because to some of us that little vibration makes your GS special. But others wont agree because vibrations dont cut. Nor does exhaust noise. Everyone can have loud exhausts or a shaky car. But to have a car that stirs you and everyone around you, that car has soul and most would agree.
A 67 Shelby Mustang. Im sure it handles like crap, but any one of you would say "wow, nice" if you saw one. Its special and its rare. That fact alone doesn't cut it, but its other peoples reaction that creates a buzz.
In truth wikiality plays a big role. Its hard to gauge on forums because everyone who posts is somewhat an enthusiast, so everyone would have their bias. Drive a 330 or Corvette down the street, you might get some people to look at it. Drive a Ferrari down a street, people WILL look at it. Its that feeling you get when you see a Zonda or a CCX parked or coming at you.
10-29-06, 11:12 PM
#67
Exactly the response you would expect from someone that has never driven a car with soul. When you have, you know exactly what "soul" is. Drive a decent German car back-to-back with your Lexus, and you'll know what "soul" is. It's something that can't quite be put into words. The best way that I know to describe it, is the feeling you get when your car feels like an extension of your body. You know exactly what the tires are doing in relation to the pavement. You know exactly where you're at in the RPM range without having to look at the tach. You are driving the car...it's not driving you.
The Japanese cars usually do lack soul. It's the numb steering, the soft suspensions, the lack feedback to the driver. Honda's one of the occasional exceptions, though, as they do produce some cars with decent "soul", like the S2000, NSX, and to some degree the RSX and new Civic Si.
Although, it won't be long and the German cars will be soul-less too. With every new model release, the BMW cars become heavier and more numb, thanks to catering to the American market. Pretty soon our only selection of cars with "soul" will be the ones that we can't possibly afford.
The Japanese cars usually do lack soul. It's the numb steering, the soft suspensions, the lack feedback to the driver. Honda's one of the occasional exceptions, though, as they do produce some cars with decent "soul", like the S2000, NSX, and to some degree the RSX and new Civic Si.
Although, it won't be long and the German cars will be soul-less too. With every new model release, the BMW cars become heavier and more numb, thanks to catering to the American market. Pretty soon our only selection of cars with "soul" will be the ones that we can't possibly afford.
If you were to give me two cars that handled exactly the same, had the same hp, weight, etc. but one car felt more "connected" to the road and the other more isolated, I would choose the car that felt more connected, regardless of brand. As I stated above, I feel a Lexus makes you feel a bit isolated from the road.
Japanese bikes? I owned a Yamaha R6, I loved every minute of it. I can't see how someone would say it's souless. I never had a chance to ride a Harley, but I rode a Ducatti on a couple occasions. All I could think of is how much my @ss hurt.
P.S. I would add Mazda to your list of Japanese cars with "soul." Zoom zoom. (Did I mention I work at Mazda Corporate?)
10-29-06, 11:20 PM
#68
And yes, the subject of "soul" is subjective. The GS to me is a nice car, but seems rather boring. I always thought If I was a real estate agent and had drive customers around, I'd probably do it in the GS Hybrid. If I could choose a sedan to have at home, a M5 please.
10-30-06, 04:38 AM
#69
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Actually, I would agree with that. Mazda makes a few cars that do have soul. The RX-8 and Miata, without question. I'll admit that I've never actually driven an RX-8, but I've heard enough from fellow enthusiasts to draw a decent conclusion.
10-30-06, 07:02 AM
#70
Out of Warranty
Soul Music
If you define “soul” as a special gut-level connection to the driver, although I appreciate a machine that sits in oily silence waiting to do my bidding at the tiniest flick of a control – and accomplishes all with unruffled grace, whether it’s a .9g corner or an 11 sec. quarter – to me, that’s an appliance, not soul. On a beautiful day – with an understanding companion beside you who is not just willing to share this kind of automotive adventure, but actually loves it herself – a brisk drive on a winding two-lane country road, with no particular destination firmly in mind, is an experience to be savored like a fine wine.
The small British sports cars of the late fifties and early sixties exemplified soul. Triumphs, MGs, Healeys, even Sunbeams and for the horsey set, Jaguars and Morgans were the most popular. They were basic machines – one engine, transmission, steering wheel, and driver connected through four wheels and hopefully a similar number of brakes to the road. No creature comforts, a raspy exhaust that made a glance at the tach unnecessary, no roof, no windows, not even a radio (you couldn’t hear it anyway). They had soul – they were unreliable, uncomfortable, and more fun than anything with wheels should be allowed. Picture a riding lawnmower at 80 mph. These were direct, to the point fun machines. If a feature didn’t make you grin, it was removed at the factory.
Italian sports cars – particularly the Alfa Romeos had not just the Italian brio for life, but a rich, well-earned racing pedigree that went back to the most famous names in prewar racing. They were the very definition of soul; lovely lines, incredible sounds of a fine precision four or six cylinder machine whirring amid the mechanical injectors and tappets clattering away beneath the bonnet. On a cool, sun-struck autumn day, there was nothing like a blast through the countryside with the top down to make you feel alive. For the price of a pedestrian Oldsmobile, you could join the ranks of Nuvolari and Ascari driving the Mille Miglia in an open cockpit a thousand miles from Brescia to Rome and back again. That was soul.
They were more seductive than an Italian lover, and utterly faithless. They were not just unreliable, but prone to fits of temper out on the road that could leave you stranded for hours. They were easy to repair, almost impossible to repair properly. British cars could be put in running condition by your local blacksmith, Italian cars required a watchmaker. They dripped oil in the driveway, subject to electrical blackouts – usually at night on dark winding roads at speed, they were impractical in a modern sense, but they never failed to produce a grin.
Sad, in a way, that with the exception of the Atom, cars today are primarily appliances. You press the key fob to unlock the door, slide into a leather cocoon, and seal yourself inside. You adjust the climate controls, seats, steering, mirrors – all by pushbuttons . . . you crank up the CD or mp3 and twist the key. The computer-operated engine instantly responds – so quietly you glance at the tach to be sure it’s running before sliding the selector into “drive” (oh, the irony) and joining the bumper-to-bumper crawl to work.
That’s an experience your kids one day may think pretty crude – but it’s a long way from switching on the ignition, waiting for the fuel pump to wind up, then settle to a slow putt-putt before pulling out the choke, punching the throttle a time or two to prime the cylinders, then stepping on the clutch and thumbing the big “start” button on the dash. Somewhere deep under the hood, a whine punctuated by a mechanical shaking and thumping would signal the engine was turning over and (hopefully) the engine would catch. A delicate interplay between choke and throttle would keep the wily beast from either strangling or starving as your scan, pinned to the oil pressure gauge from the instant you pressed the starter, began to shift to other instruments as pressure came up and lube oil was being distributed to dozens of bearings, cams, and rockers.
The engine comes to life with a snort and settles down to a stumbling idle as all cylinders wake one by one, smoothing to a nervous stutter. As the temperature comes off the peg, you engage first gear and slowly begin to move, accelerating easily up through the gears until the engine and gearbox are up to operating temperature and have established a friendly relationship with one another. As you leave the Interstate and stretch out on the two-lane blacktop, you go to work, shifting smoothly and quickly to keep the engine in the power band - downshifting heel and toe and braking slightly before you slice the apex and squeeze on the power. The engine note rises and falls from a feline snarl to a raspy howl as gasoline is transformed into adrenalin.
No turbo lag to anticipate, no wheelspin - just a slight 4-wheel drift as you ease to the edge of your lane to remind you what this machine was made to do in the hands of a master. The mechanical chatter of the engine and yowl of the exhaust on the overrun – the distinct smell of castor oil (no additives, thank you) provides you a front-row seat to the most exciting concert in motorsport. Soul music.
The small British sports cars of the late fifties and early sixties exemplified soul. Triumphs, MGs, Healeys, even Sunbeams and for the horsey set, Jaguars and Morgans were the most popular. They were basic machines – one engine, transmission, steering wheel, and driver connected through four wheels and hopefully a similar number of brakes to the road. No creature comforts, a raspy exhaust that made a glance at the tach unnecessary, no roof, no windows, not even a radio (you couldn’t hear it anyway). They had soul – they were unreliable, uncomfortable, and more fun than anything with wheels should be allowed. Picture a riding lawnmower at 80 mph. These were direct, to the point fun machines. If a feature didn’t make you grin, it was removed at the factory.
Italian sports cars – particularly the Alfa Romeos had not just the Italian brio for life, but a rich, well-earned racing pedigree that went back to the most famous names in prewar racing. They were the very definition of soul; lovely lines, incredible sounds of a fine precision four or six cylinder machine whirring amid the mechanical injectors and tappets clattering away beneath the bonnet. On a cool, sun-struck autumn day, there was nothing like a blast through the countryside with the top down to make you feel alive. For the price of a pedestrian Oldsmobile, you could join the ranks of Nuvolari and Ascari driving the Mille Miglia in an open cockpit a thousand miles from Brescia to Rome and back again. That was soul.
They were more seductive than an Italian lover, and utterly faithless. They were not just unreliable, but prone to fits of temper out on the road that could leave you stranded for hours. They were easy to repair, almost impossible to repair properly. British cars could be put in running condition by your local blacksmith, Italian cars required a watchmaker. They dripped oil in the driveway, subject to electrical blackouts – usually at night on dark winding roads at speed, they were impractical in a modern sense, but they never failed to produce a grin.
Sad, in a way, that with the exception of the Atom, cars today are primarily appliances. You press the key fob to unlock the door, slide into a leather cocoon, and seal yourself inside. You adjust the climate controls, seats, steering, mirrors – all by pushbuttons . . . you crank up the CD or mp3 and twist the key. The computer-operated engine instantly responds – so quietly you glance at the tach to be sure it’s running before sliding the selector into “drive” (oh, the irony) and joining the bumper-to-bumper crawl to work.
That’s an experience your kids one day may think pretty crude – but it’s a long way from switching on the ignition, waiting for the fuel pump to wind up, then settle to a slow putt-putt before pulling out the choke, punching the throttle a time or two to prime the cylinders, then stepping on the clutch and thumbing the big “start” button on the dash. Somewhere deep under the hood, a whine punctuated by a mechanical shaking and thumping would signal the engine was turning over and (hopefully) the engine would catch. A delicate interplay between choke and throttle would keep the wily beast from either strangling or starving as your scan, pinned to the oil pressure gauge from the instant you pressed the starter, began to shift to other instruments as pressure came up and lube oil was being distributed to dozens of bearings, cams, and rockers.
The engine comes to life with a snort and settles down to a stumbling idle as all cylinders wake one by one, smoothing to a nervous stutter. As the temperature comes off the peg, you engage first gear and slowly begin to move, accelerating easily up through the gears until the engine and gearbox are up to operating temperature and have established a friendly relationship with one another. As you leave the Interstate and stretch out on the two-lane blacktop, you go to work, shifting smoothly and quickly to keep the engine in the power band - downshifting heel and toe and braking slightly before you slice the apex and squeeze on the power. The engine note rises and falls from a feline snarl to a raspy howl as gasoline is transformed into adrenalin.
No turbo lag to anticipate, no wheelspin - just a slight 4-wheel drift as you ease to the edge of your lane to remind you what this machine was made to do in the hands of a master. The mechanical chatter of the engine and yowl of the exhaust on the overrun – the distinct smell of castor oil (no additives, thank you) provides you a front-row seat to the most exciting concert in motorsport. Soul music.
Last edited by Lil4X; 10-30-06 at 06:51 PM.
10-30-06, 07:57 AM
#71
EV ftw!!!
That was a very interesting article Lil4X
Clearly you are a very well educated and well-read person. You also have a very engaging and entertaining writing style.
For those of us who never got to experience the pleasures of driving the cars you write about, our definition of soul is obviously different and also just as relevant I might add.
I consider my hard riding Tein Flex'd GS400 to have tons of soul. It all boils down to what we really like and how much enjoyment we get out of it. My car never ceases to bring a huge smile to my face every time I punch that throttle and hear the low-rumble loud growl from the engine, take those corners fast, spin the tires at will from a stop, feel every bump and pot hole on our frost heaved roads.
I am in automotive nirvana whenever I drive my GS. I go out of my way to drive on a bridge near my neighbourhood that has walls - open all the windows, slow down, then mash the throttle when I get to the bridge and hear the rumbly exhaust/engine note bounce off those walls is the best automotive music I have ever heard.
Both of my sons aged 9 and 7 just love my car and it's powerful combination of raw power, aural gratification and luxury all rolled into one.
Does my Lexus have soul?? Damn right it does. Definitely a different kind of soul compared to the vintage cars you write about, but soul nonetheless.
Clearly you are a very well educated and well-read person. You also have a very engaging and entertaining writing style. For those of us who never got to experience the pleasures of driving the cars you write about, our definition of soul is obviously different and also just as relevant I might add.
I consider my hard riding Tein Flex'd GS400 to have tons of soul. It all boils down to what we really like and how much enjoyment we get out of it. My car never ceases to bring a huge smile to my face every time I punch that throttle and hear the low-rumble loud growl from the engine, take those corners fast, spin the tires at will from a stop, feel every bump and pot hole on our frost heaved roads.
I am in automotive nirvana whenever I drive my GS. I go out of my way to drive on a bridge near my neighbourhood that has walls - open all the windows, slow down, then mash the throttle when I get to the bridge and hear the rumbly exhaust/engine note bounce off those walls is the best automotive music I have ever heard.
Both of my sons aged 9 and 7 just love my car and it's powerful combination of raw power, aural gratification and luxury all rolled into one.
Does my Lexus have soul?? Damn right it does. Definitely a different kind of soul compared to the vintage cars you write about, but soul nonetheless.
10-31-06, 03:10 PM
#72
Out of Warranty
Soul Satisfaction
Thank you, Hameed - It's my version of doodling while waiting for an appointment or a call. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a great scholar - I had to arm-wrestle the Dean for my diploma, and remain an embarrassment to the academic community to this day.
I guess I grew up on Ken Purdy, David E. Davis, Brock Yates, Denise McCluggage, Leon Mandel, and a half-dozen other writers from the old C/D and it's predecessor, Sports Car Illustrated. Call me an OG.
Your point is well made - Soul probably needs redefining in the age of ECMs, electronic stability control, and "launch" software. Nowhere has technology made such vast changes in not only motorsport, but in the family car on your dealer's lot. A little over ten years ago I bought a 5-speed Civic EX for a commuter car; small, economical, with some small amount of attraction for the enthusiast in me. Something eminently practical.
One evening I sat down and went over the features that little slightly-upscale econobox offered - and I was stunned. Here was a (relatively) cheap car with a computer-controlled ignition, fuel injection, variable valve timing, dual overhead cams, four valves per cylinder, front-wheel drive, disc brakes, antilocks and other small features that were practically unknown on sports cars that the average man could own only fifteen or twenty years earlier.
The Civic's powerplant was producing well over the vaunted one-horsepower per cubic inch that was the holy grail of street racers well into the eighties. And it was being sold on an economy car. In the sixties F1 engines were about the only powerplants designed to last more than one or two trips through the quarter-mile with this specific power output. . . and it came with a warranty!
The industry has seen more technological change in the past twenty years than in the previous hundred - back when a Studebaker was a wagon, and Ford wasn't even born. What I see as soul - the romance of the automobile, the sheer mechanical pleasure of enthusiasm - even with the regular breakdowns and the problematical electrics - most today would view as a soul in need of an exorcism.
Yeah, I have to admit I love the idea of getting in my leather-lined chamber, dialing up the GPS, and setting off on adventure from which I can be expected to return without carrying a toolkit, spare plugs, points, and a coil, maybe even a compass and a handful of gas-station maps. Turning down the stereo and voice-dialing the 800 number for a motel room 100 miles up the road - or watching my wife view one of her favorite chick flicks in the back seat as darkness gathers on the road ahead may make technology a pretty good thing . . . once I get over my nostalgia . . .
I guess I grew up on Ken Purdy, David E. Davis, Brock Yates, Denise McCluggage, Leon Mandel, and a half-dozen other writers from the old C/D and it's predecessor, Sports Car Illustrated. Call me an OG.
Your point is well made - Soul probably needs redefining in the age of ECMs, electronic stability control, and "launch" software. Nowhere has technology made such vast changes in not only motorsport, but in the family car on your dealer's lot. A little over ten years ago I bought a 5-speed Civic EX for a commuter car; small, economical, with some small amount of attraction for the enthusiast in me. Something eminently practical.
One evening I sat down and went over the features that little slightly-upscale econobox offered - and I was stunned. Here was a (relatively) cheap car with a computer-controlled ignition, fuel injection, variable valve timing, dual overhead cams, four valves per cylinder, front-wheel drive, disc brakes, antilocks and other small features that were practically unknown on sports cars that the average man could own only fifteen or twenty years earlier.
The Civic's powerplant was producing well over the vaunted one-horsepower per cubic inch that was the holy grail of street racers well into the eighties. And it was being sold on an economy car. In the sixties F1 engines were about the only powerplants designed to last more than one or two trips through the quarter-mile with this specific power output. . . and it came with a warranty!
The industry has seen more technological change in the past twenty years than in the previous hundred - back when a Studebaker was a wagon, and Ford wasn't even born. What I see as soul - the romance of the automobile, the sheer mechanical pleasure of enthusiasm - even with the regular breakdowns and the problematical electrics - most today would view as a soul in need of an exorcism.
Yeah, I have to admit I love the idea of getting in my leather-lined chamber, dialing up the GPS, and setting off on adventure from which I can be expected to return without carrying a toolkit, spare plugs, points, and a coil, maybe even a compass and a handful of gas-station maps. Turning down the stereo and voice-dialing the 800 number for a motel room 100 miles up the road - or watching my wife view one of her favorite chick flicks in the back seat as darkness gathers on the road ahead may make technology a pretty good thing . . . once I get over my nostalgia . . .
Last edited by Lil4X; 10-31-06 at 03:14 PM.
10-31-06, 08:56 PM
#73
Lexus Fanatic
10-31-06, 09:01 PM
#74
Lexus Fanatic
Material things, yes, but we obviously spend a significant part of our lives talking about them right here on this forum when not actually driving them...me, especially.
