LexFather

Sorry but we all know the higher the PRICE the more PRESTIGE means to buyers. It is a simple fact. Most buyers are not car people and don't care about what magazines say (they don't even read em). They talk to friends, they see what other people want and respect.

You need a BRAND to sell your flagship. Look at the Audi A8, VW Phaeton, Acura RL, Acura NSX, Infiniti Q45...really good cars, lacking the prestige in America to do well from a BRAND perspective.

Then you can't COMPETE and be Japanese. You have to BEAT the Germans. Not in all aspects but some. The LS has done this since 1990.

It has taken 17 YEARS to get a LS 460/LS 600l h, AWD and short and long wheelbase models. Lexus CLEARLY knows luxury and what people want.

I have no confidence in a brand that has had a failure for 17 years and suddenly wake up one morning and figure it all out.

Yes the new M is competitive, yes it has won comparos, however it still lacks the prestige and "wow" factor needed in this class. Great car yes, however it will take time and a couple generations to really get its name out there.

We also don't know how well the more expensive M45 sells to the M35, since Nissan refuses to split sales. I would love to know the difference.

jrock65

No reason to be sorry. I've said that same exact thing.

Which is why the M doing well is very impressive, almost equalling GS sales while having a much weaker brand name, much crappier (and smaller) dealer network, and being a 1st generation product.

Agree in general. But it's not impossible to sell a flagship with no brand recognition. That's exactly what the original LS400 did in 1990. Lexus brand prestige back then was zero. But the car was a hit from the get-go.

But that's exactly what happened with the G35 Coupe and M35/45. They suddenly figured something out with these 1st generation products.

Especially the G35 Coupe. A first generation product and just one model, and it outsells all 2 door variants of the 3 series combined (325Ci, 330Ci, all 3 series convertibles, M3). That's an AMAZING feat.

LexFather

Good points Jrock

TRDFantasy

I wouldn't make blanket statements. It beats *everything* in it's class? By most comparisons, it does not beat the 5 Series, by any measure. Also, it has been beaten by the *old* GS300/GS430 pair in several comparos. Now with the GS350, and upcoming GS460, the M looks less competitive. I don't even have to mention the GS hybrid. The 2007 GS models come with numerous updates, like new engines and new Nav systems. We still have yet to see what the GS460 brings, as rumour has it will sport the LS460's 8 speed along with the previously-known 4.6L V8, and a possibly redesigned front suspension system to handle all the increased power.

Infiniti can do what exactly with the new Q? Build a class competitive vehicle? If they try, that could be likely. Build a class leading vehicle (that *blows away* the new LS)? Not by any stretch of the imagination.

TRDFantasy

... Except the G and M sell mainly based on value, and it's going to be tough to beat the new LS on value (more on that when we see LS prices).

History has also shown, that in the premium luxury, and prestige luxury class, it's not enough to simply "out sport" your competitor. BMW knows that all too well. It's 7 Series has never been a big player in the premium/prestige luxury market, at least in North America.

If Infiniti's aim with the new Q is to simply "out-sport" most of it's competition, than it's going to struggle big-time, especially with a new 7 Series coming out around the same time as the new Q. My guess is that most LS and S Class buyers won't even consider the new Q when it comes out, but the Acura RL and 7 Series will be prime competitors.

LexFather

Guys at this point, lets not beat this dead horse anymore and even I will not participate in this thread anymore.

The Q was a good car and I am sure any upcoming replacement will be good too.

jrock65

Interesting. Does the GS350 sell "mainly on value" as well? Price for a similarly optioned GS350 and M35, and for a GS350 AWD and M35x are basically the same.

2007 GS350 (ML/Navi, AFS, Ventilated Seats): $49,200

2007 M35 (Journey, Tech, Advanced Tech): $48,950

----------------------------------------------------

2007 GS350 AWD (ML/Navi, AFS, Ventilated Seats): $51,150

2007 M35x (HID/AFS, Tech, Advanced Tech): $51,500

jrock65

Let's get the facts straight. The GS300 hasn't beaten anything in any comparo. It has been in 2 comparos (Edmunds and CR) that I'm aware of, and placed dead last in both comparos.

I'm sure the GS460 will be a fine car, and "up the ante" so to speak, but I'm sure that Infiniti will hit back with the 2008 M50.

TRDFantasy

Technically, M is 2nd gen production, especially with carryover 4.5L V8 from first-gen M45.

Also, M Class this year equalling GS sales has a big exception, and that is that GS production was crippled for much of the year. Last year, M Class was not even close to GS sales, and we will see how the next few months, and 2007 pans out.

Toyota, with the original LS400, focused a godly amount of time, money, and effort to make it such a great car. On top of that, Lexus when it debuted set new standards for dealership and ownership experience. Even if Infiniti manages to come up a car similar to the original LS400, it's dealers still don't compare to Lexus, and thus, the ownership experience wouldn't be the same.

G and M Class do not compete in premium or prestige class, so their accomplishment is not all that incredible.

When Ghosn took over Nissan, they had a pretty good product renaissance, save for a few failed models, like the infamous QX56, or the trouble-ridden Titan. Altima, G, and M were all pretty surprising vehicles when they came out, and based on their style and performance, led to pretty good sales.

But now, Nissan has a product drought. The new G and new Altima look much too similar to the current Altima and G, and are therefore a lot less surprising or attention-grabbing. Nissan needs a solid reputation to keep up consistent sales, and right now it doesn't have that, due to the myriad of quality and reliability issues among a number of its models, not to mention the often criticized cheap interiors, which are thankfully being improved. Other than the new Sentra and Versa, Nissan and it's Infiniti division don't really have anything else in the pipeline for a while, and that's causing concern. Nissan sales in Japan have been dropping in the double-digit range for months, despite several new models that were released this year in Japan. Just imagine what the new Corolla will do when it comes out in Japan in October. Nissan execs no doubt must be worried about that car. It's only the best selling car in the world .

Overall, in the next two years, Toyota and Lexus have a lot more new products coming than Nissan or Infiniti.

Q45th

Just like the mod said... lets not beat a dead horse. Whatever next generation Infiniti has is in store for its flagship I'm sure it will be a competitor and well have to see if it blows away the comptetion... the fact is none of those board knows anything about it other than a few photos I saw. Regardless everyone will have to wait and see how it pans out.


In regards to this..

Since you have so much insight please enlighten us all with each companies plan is for its future vehicles...inquiring minds want to know

TRDFantasy

The GS350 is much more value buy than the GS300 before it. Almost no price increase for a more powerful, practically equally fuel efficient engine, new Nav system, and bigger brakes, among other things.

My comment was in reference to the M35 vs the GS300, and M45 vs G430. With the GS350, and GS460, the GS becomes a bigger value buy than before, so we will see how much that affects M sales.

TRDFantasy

That's why I mentioned the GS300/GS430 as a pair, not individually. Overall, the GS series hasn't been "dead last" in *every comparison*, nor has the M beaten "everything" in it's class in comparos, which was the original statement I replied to.

As far as I know, the 2008 "M50" is nothing more than conjecture, where-as with the GS460 we have confirmation from various sources it is coming. If you have specific proof that it is coming, I'd be more than happy to learn about it.

Hypnotik

Even if the sales were split, of course the m35 would sell more. You talk about wow factor and prestige, yet, the M has outsold the GS many times. If it didnt outsell it, it has always been very close. That must mean that the GS doesnt have enough prestige and wow factor. Or it could be that the infiniti M doesnt lack that at all and you are just being too biased against infiniti

TRDFantasy

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...73256958495344

Future products for Japanese makers ... this was posted on Autoweek, but the information is from Autonews, which is a quite reputable news source. There are other sources that have posted similar information.

As you can see, the number of new products coming or in the works for North America is obviously higher for Toyota and its Scion and Lexus brands, than compared to Nissan and Infiniti over the next two years.

TRDFantasy

No, it has not.

M and GS YTD sales as of August 2006:

GS: 18539
M: 17541

Even if you take out GS450h sales, then the GS still slightly edges out the M. The GS still beats the M in YTD sales, despite GS production being crippled for a good chunk of the year, and despite the M35 and M45 having more powerful engines.