4TehNguyen

iTrader: (1)

If audi raises prices I think that just makes Lexus look more attractive to people, as now BMW and MB are higher price as well

RON430

So the education that Audi has in mind to make the ignorant aware is to get a big gaping grill on something in a movie and then raise prices? Brilliant. It's a really a shame that the uber intelligent management of Audi didn't price their models to be profitable in the first place realistically estimating the sales their product is capable of generating. Oops, I guess that was just Ameroignorance and I have to assume I am just too dim to see Audi's master plan.

I have been looking at the A8 recently and the standard car starts on the sticker at 69.6K while a 750 starts on the sticker at about 3K more. At present around here I can work more off of the 750 price than the A8 so the price differential out the door narrows to less than 2K. I get the price back with bimmers resale and have a more enjoyable car to drive. Would I be more interested in the A8 if it cost more than a 7?

According to our sales threads in Sept. Audi sold 438 A8s and bimmer sold 1015 7's. I doubt price made much difference in those sales but I surely don't think that A8 sales will eat into 7 sales more with a higher price. If Audi prices the A8 in S class territory, well I have a feeling I know how that will go. The most disturbing part of this press release was not that Audi was going to offer product that justified a higher price but rather "educate" us ignorant Americans how much more we should pay for an Audi by seeing it in movies. I guess Ronin wasn't enough, they believe a big gaping grill on an imaginary Sci Fi toy legitimizes a price increase. I sure wish I wasn't an ignorant American because that just looks like a poorly conceived marketing model to me.

I like the A8 a lot but I am not sure how much Audi believes they can raise prices as it does not deliver the driving experience of the bimmer while both have abysmal reliability to a Lexus owner. I doubt either marque can entertain getting MB prices regardless of how much they want to. Then again, I am probably just one of those ignorant Americans that will become a lot Audismarter when I see a big gaping grill marching band formation during halftime at the super bowl.

LexLaw

And that's what I don't understand. If the 750 and A8 are ever equal in price, I'm going to choose the BMW every single time. Audi needs to realize they are just not there yet.

mmarshall

.......Which, in many ways, they ARE. I would take a newer Audi over either a newer BMW or Mercedes in a heartbeat....even with the new oversized Audi grilles. ( though Audi has made the same mistake, with the MMI, that BMW made with the I-Drive ).

mavericck

Good points, but you do realize that America is the only country in the world where Audi sells their vehicles at a loss. Don't you? In fact I have met many people from around the world that come to America to buy their Audi's because they are much cheaper over here (mostly due to American ignorance ). In fact I recently ran into a German couple who came here to buy their Audi because it was cheaper for them to do so, go figure.

Gojirra99

It's cheaper to buy all cars in USA now because the US$ is weak which makes the US prices looks cheap.
Go to the Europe/UK Mercedes & BMW sites & you would be surprised how much more it cost to buy these cars in their own homeland than in the U.S. when the prices there are translated to US$ using the current exchange rates. Note also that they have to be shipped a long distance here & pay import taxes when they enter the U.S. too.

Iceman

I recently priced a 2007 S8 on the Audi website. Nicely equipped it came to $111K!!

I had no flippin' idea Audis were so expensive. If that price was $30K less I might consider stepping into a dealership. And now some marketing guy says they're going to push prices HIGHER?

I guess I'll stick with the superior product and value pricing of the Japanese luxury marques...

RON430

Nope, I didn't know Audi sells their vehicles here at a loss. Is there any reason why I should know or care? Audi sets their prices and unless some ignorant American was holding a gun to their head I think the dunce cap belongs in Audi's headquarters, not blaming Americans for being too ignorant to go into an Audi dealership and beg them to take more than sticker price for their cars. If they are indeed selling here at a loss many an ignorant American might ask exactly how stupid are you guys? How were you ever going to make a business? Make it up in volume by selling large numbers of cars at a loss?

Most of the people I have seen passionately in love with Audis are those who value AWD above all else because of where they live. I really don't want to get into a long winded opinion laced diatribe on AWD but AWD is still a niche sales advantage which Audi has decided to explore rather than increase volume with RWD models. It didn't do much for Acura withe the RL. I don't necessarily fault them for that but I don't need AWD and for me, assuming I were willing to put up with the downside of each marque, I would very likely take the bimmer over the equivalent Audi even though I like the Audi interior more. I don't see the price difference between the 7 and the A8 as significant right now but I wouldn't think Audi has much room to raise prices relative to bimmer. As bad as it is getting a bimmer serviced, the much smaller sales base of the Audi makes it that much more difficult to get the things serviced. Subaru is also an AWD specialty and the same argument holds here for Subie relative to Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and even Mitsubishi which all have more dealers for service.

But fundamentallly I come back to the admittely Ameroignorant opinion that as the A8 sits today, I don't see where they believe they can raise the price very much. Of course raising the price because of advertising might work on their demographic. Apparently people in other countries are willing to pay more for Audis that are cinema stars and because they get a lifestyle experience at the dealership. As good as Lexus treats people, I don't fnd hanging around any car dealer to be a major part of my lifestyle. But more power to them, I am sure we will see a big pop in sticker price and a year from now they will outsell bimmer and Lexus. Yeah, right.

RON430

You are quoting legitimate business reasons about car prices here versus the rest of the world. But the argument has been made that the uber geniuses of Audi made the sound business plan to price their product here at a loss because people here are ignorant about Audi goodness. Evidently being ignorant gets you a better deal but being Audismart gets you losses for every car you sell. I guess I don't mind being an ignorant American. Has anybody told bimmer and Mercedes how ignorant we are? If they were Audismart they would be selling cars here at a loss too.

txstud86

Considering the fact that marketing is one of the few reasons Lexus is so popular in the US, I'd say you're right on. Lexus realized early on that Americans are unique in that they value a particular image over the product iteself--point being that Americans are more likely to consider a prestige car that is more prominently advertised than one that is not.

Contrast this with luxury buyers around the world, and you'll see Lexus is viewed as nothing more than a Toyota with leather and navigation, and not viewed to be on the same level as Audi, BMW, or MB.

In these markets, the consumer is smart enough to see Lexus is not on par with these brands--they lack a performance division, don't currently have a V12 engine, don't have enough variants, lack diesels, and most importantly, lack the heritage of the German makes. Lexus didn't even have a LWB version of the LS until now. As a result of this, Lexus sales outside of the US are pitifully small--they sold 20,000 units in all of Europe last year.

Because of these differences, Audi's plan to more aggressively market their vehicles is nothing short of brialliant.

Lease prices of the A8 and 7 are quite similar, even though the Audi's resale is a bit lower. Furthermore, magazine publications agree that the difference in handling, braking, and overall driving pleasure between the 7 and A8 are virtually identical. The fact that the A8's interior has superior fit, finish, and materials to the 7, are reasons people choose it. The 7 may have the image, but the A8 is superior to it in every way, and magazine comparisons tend to agree.

It's apparent you really know very little about cars, but rather look at a badge and make irrational judgements of a car and entire brand based on outdated preconceived notions.

The fact is, Americans know very little about Audi because Audi has spent little money in marketing to US consumers. Globally, the brand is well established and viewed as Tier I, but in the US that's not the case, and this has nothing to do with the quality of products they offer.

I suppose you have no idea the only reason Lexus is considered to be on par with MB and BMW in the US is because of clever advertising and strategic product placement, which creates this illusion, even though we know it's not true.

txstud86

And I suppose Lexus is?

This is exactly how Americans think. The A8's interior blows away the 7, the car features a revolutionary all aluminum platform, has a highly regarded engine (4.2), and even more highly rated W12 engine, yet Americans choose more 7's.

Contrast this globally, and Audi sells more A8L W12's than BMW sells 760Li's, or Mercedes S600's. The only reason why is because the A8 is clearly a superior, more well rounded car than both of these.

Americans have a lot to learn in general, but especially about cars.

txstud86

Name any other carmaker currently operating in the US that had a severe media related PR disaster because of fabricated claims. You won't be able to, because Audi is the only one. The fact that they were even able to recover from the illegitimate 60 Minutes "expose" in the '80's is simply remarkable.

Before that, Audi was selling 75,000+ cars, which was quite a bit for a premium automaker. Those false claims severely damaged Audi's reputation in the US, and they are still recovering.

So it was crucial that Audi lower prices to compete, because their brand image had been severely damaged.

I don't need AWD where I live but still appreciate the superior grip. Audi will never create an RWD drive car because that's not part of their philosophy. They will not change who they are to attract more customers, but rather attract more customers with better advertising.

Lexus vehicles have always been priced lower than the competition. But prices have slowly been raised as the brand became more established through advertising. Audi will utilize this same philosophy and it will work.

RON430

I am not sure if you have much idea about what has put values in cars, evidently you believe marketing is what makes the difference. Might want to turn the reality distortion field down a bit. Then again, maybe you are right and Audi marketing is "brialliant". From the press release, the reason given for the increased marketing was to justify raising prices. Obviously you feel marketing programs are worth more than I. You are inevitably paying for all of a company's programs when you purchase the car but Audi makes a competitive product. I don't see where they have the ability to raise prices much and doing so will either a)increase sales, b) not effect sales, or c) reduce sales. All we have to do is wait to see what happens.

You are fully allowed to paint with as broad a brush as you want but this is Club Lexus and I think you will find that the people here are informed about cars and have developed a sense of what they are looking for. That may be a small percentage of Lexus owners but to say that Americans favor image over the product "iteself" is a opinion that you are welcome to harbor but if Audi gets it wrong, well there will be more repercussions than just ignoring this thread two days from now.

Magazine reviews are interesting to me but I don't make car purchases based on them. I have driven the 750 in both wheelbase versions and the A8 in both wheelbase versions at least twice in the last six weeks. I find the Audi interior to be a bit better executed. The ride of the Audi is softer than the 7 which can be a blessing on the poor roads around here but overall, I do not believe the Audi holds a candle to the driving dynamic of the bimmer. Maybe if you read magazines less and drove cars more you would be better informed.

Gosh thanks, I doubt there is anyone who I would respect more for calling me uninformed about cars than you. I find that anonymous posts in chat rooms are the benchmark for setting our standards of intelligence and you just very aptly made that point. I have owned bimmers and Lexus and I believe that when you attempt to parallel their image you are demonstrating the wisdom that can only come in internet chat rooms. Lexus has a decidedly different image than bimmer. What happens in the future with such models as the LS will have to be seen but the marque is too young to have the status of BMW or MB. Lexus lives on reliabilty, refinement, and value. The whole thing kicked off with the original LS and it rocked the established brands. Now Lexus is reducing the price differential and is aiming at a different customer. But all this is dragging this thread off to where it shouldn't be. If you are able to focus on the original point for more than a few seconds the issue is Audi and their ability to raise prices through more advertising in the US. Maybe it will work. Maybe it won't. When I look at the car I tend to look at the product, I guess you have a difficult time believing there are Americans that do that but there are a few. Marketing doesn't enter into it. Maybe Audi is right in that they should have a higher price than now. But they are very close to bimmer and no, I do not believe they offer a product that justifies a higher price than bimmer. Of course they are more expensive than Lexus and I haven't gone for either the A8 or the LS until I have a chance to see and drive the new LS. Oops, sorry, I know I wasn't suppose to mention that an uninformed dullard like me would actually want to wait and drive the car. You are most likely right and I would be much better off pick a car from the brochure where Audi will likely excel.

AZDesertGS

iTrader: (4)

Maybe they should finish up the class action law suit with all the S4 owners, whos motors have been blowing up first.

RON430

I assume you don't want to talk about everything from Tucker to the fact that when Ralph Nader savaged the early model Corvair, General Motors had already fixed the suspension in the later models. Sorry, maybe that predates your automotive expertise but I have it on your own opinion that you are far more an expert than I so I will just write this off to your desire to be Audismart. I did not want to bring up the unintended acceleration issue as I personally didn't really think there was much there. Now this isn't for you because I bow to your self proclaimed automotive wisdom but there have always been cars that were prone to this problem and others may be interested in my admitted uninformed ramblings. In my 71 E type, the wheel well caused the foot well to narrow and the pedals were spaced so close together I could press all three at one time. I guess the English have a lot narrower feet than us poor old ignorant non-Audismart Americans. I tried to buy and Audi 5000 and I would agree that the pedals were close together but you had to purely be asleep to not only make a mistake as to which one you were pressing but have the intelligence of a headlight illuminated deer to not get your stupid foot off the pedal before you drove into a minimart. If the Audi dealer hadn't set new lows in customer service I might have gotten it but after getting run around for five months, I bought a bimmer and never regreted it.

But Audi got nailed for the unintended accleration. Heeling and toeing isn't for everyone, especially in automatic equipped cars. I don't want to defend either sixty minutes or Audi. I think there was validity to the claim but it certainly applied to more models and makes than just Audi. So Audi's response after sales tanked was to lower prices. Sounds reasonable. Give people a reason to see how good the cars are. But sell at a loss and have prices reduced for twenty years, I am not sure what the point is here but the Audismartness appears pretty dim.


AWD makes huge sense. The contact patch we attempt to put power down through is a severe limitation. Using all four tires makes a lot of sense for acceleration, the only area where AWD has a performance advantage. You do need to carry around more mechanism to do it which ultimately increases internal losses to friction and the reason why the Audis are inevitably a tick slower, maybe not have as good mileage, and a few more areas for reliability concerns to equal hp in a RWD sedan. Being able to put power down coming out of a turn favors AWD because you can put the power down sooner. Straight line acceleration should also be improved in the same way but the weight shift on acceleration reduces the AWD advantage as the weight transfers to the rear wheels. Of course our electronic nannies don't let us get too close to limits of adhesion anymore but that is a different issue. The place where I don't care for FWD mechanisms, and AWD puts power down to the front wheels and I have to admit to being vehicularly challenged (as you so rightly point out) but I believe Audi biases their AWD to the front - not rear, is steering feel. I have never felt an AWD or FWD that had the precise steering feel of a well set up RWD. No one has ever come close to BMW at its best.

Now, you can raise the argument that BMW are not what they once were in this area and the electronics are interfering with that but even my automotive ignorant opinion is that the 7 is a better driver than the A8. I could easily live with either one but I favor the 7 and I believe if you look back at those magazine reviews you seem to love so much you will find that while the Audi may have outscored a bimmer overall in some specific comparo, the driving dynamic rarely goes to the competition if there is a bimmer in the test.

I have never owned an Audi but I have owned bimmers and I find their reliability to be awful. If Doug999 comes over here he will doubtless inform us how good his 550 has been replacing his GS but the stats seem to still say that bimmer is overall, not good. Maybe not as bad as MB but a world away from Lexus. A good friend of mine bought an Audi GT in prehistoric times. He had many problems with it and I know it is unfair to saddle current Audi product with an outdated opinion but some of his experiences were outright shameful. If you ever look at a PC board you will see metal traces which are the wiring for the interconnect. I know of course that you are a self proclaimed automotive expert but please indulge me as I tell this story. In advanced electronics, when you have a very complicated assembly that is in low volume or when you are prototyping it is not unusual to have mistakes in the traces or find that things need to be changed. In order to save time, you often cut the traces and solder jumper wires to make the changes. But you never put product in a customers hands in that condition. After the third time the engine controller went out on the Audi GT, my friend who is also in the semiconductor industry, decided to watch the repair and inspect the parts. The Audi board when turned over was full of cut traces and jumpers. The new board was similarly modified. The Audi mechanics (they days before technicians) said that it was common on Audi electronics at the time. That did not indicate to me that Audi was anywhere near world class. If I remember right, this is also around the unintended acceleration time frame. I don't believe Audi has those problems today but they are still not ranking very high in reliability. And that is a concern to me. I know what to expect from a bimmer but at least while they are running they are marvelous machines. I know I am just an uninformed American but the reasons I may buy a Lexus or bimmer over the Audi is not because the Audi has too low of a price. Then again, I haven't seen the new Audi marketing because you have assured us that it will work, markedly increase Audi sales, return them to profitability, and make us all appreciate Audi. I can't wait to become Audismart!