Och

iTrader: (3)

While all this technology is great and all, but you have to question the long term reliability. All these high tech 100K cars are going to be worthless in 10 years or so, because repair prices just wont justify keeping these cars. I understand that someone whos able to afford a brand new LS460L or S550 probably couldn't give a crap about repairs costs down the road, because he/she wont even keep the car for more than two or three years, but those of us who are less fortunate, and shop for used cars, are going to suffer.

ff_

Nah, I'd call 360 HP from 3.2 liters...


...and 425 HP from 3.6 liters good engineering.

Threxx

Yes, it's called Magneride and is optional on the Corvette as well as standard equipment on some of the higher end Caddy STS, DTS, Escalade (the one that just came out), and Buick Lucerne. It can adjust the firmness of the strut once per millisecond! However it is only able to adjust the viscosity of the fluid, which means it can soften the firmness for the inbound stroke, and firm it up for the outbound stroke... but it's still not fully active, meaning it still depends on the road itself to do the work - it only changes the bias of the strut to encourage the kind of behavior it wants to see happening in that given moment.

It is not a GM innovation, though. It actually belongs to Delphi and while the large majority of Delphi's business and even ownership belongs to GM... they are still a financially seperate entity... so they licensed the technology to Ferrari for their all new 599 GTB... and possibly other future models.

More info on the way it works.
http://delphi.com/manufacturers/auto...ide/magneride/

STIG

but not very good value.

ff_

But the LS doesn't come in red.

Threxx

Well... low displacement high power motors are neat, and all, but the way they generally are able to achieve those power numbers is due to their low reciprocating mass, which allows for a motor that continues to make power, reliably, into a much higher RPM range than a vehicle with a high displacement per cylinder heavy rotating assembly.

But what that also typically means is that those motors HAVE to be revved high to make any form of respectable power. Look at the power curve of those motors under 3k RPM or so, and then look at the power curve of a higher displacement per cylinder lower revving motor under 3k RPM.

Granted there's nothing wrong with a free revving/high revving sports car - heck, it can make a car very fun to drive. But nobody wants to rev their luxury car up to 5k RPM every time they leave a stop light just to get some decent acceleration out of it. Too noisey, too much effort involved... just not what 'luxury' is all about. Luxury is about subdued and effortless acceleration - not redlined acceleration every other light.

So what I'm trying to say is that each design is respectable and well-suited to the car it is found in.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Have your checked the price of one of these babies lately? You think this engine will last? How is it on fuel?


Bottom line, is everything comes with a price. You can increase compression and RPM's on the engine, or even slap a turbo or two, and then you get increased power but economy and reliability are down the drain. This maybe acceptable for high end sports cars that are meant for auto enthusiasts, but in no way for family/luxury autos. Therefore manufacturers have to come up with more advanced technologies, such as variable timing, direct injection, etc. In that sense the new 4.6 engine is one of the most well engineered engines in its class as its one of the most efficient in power to size and fuel economy ratios.

ff_

The sub-conversation was about engines that were more technologically advanced.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Technological advancement isn't limited to HP/L. It is the ration of hp/l, tq/l, hp and tq torque, fuel economy, reliability, balance, etc, etc. An engine that is producting 120hp/l, but consumes oil and tends to randomly blow up is not technologically advanced, but rather overclocked. You can take take that new 4.6, increase redline to 8,000 and it will probably produce around 450hp, but it wont last too long.

Threxx

To add to your "etc, etc"... cost of production, noise, vibration, maintenance requirements and ease of maintenance, weight of the motor, and exterior physical dimensions of the motor (this may not matter much to the consumer but the smaller a motor is the easier it is to integrate it into smaller cars without making it impossible to work on).

And I don't think this is what you were saying but...
If you, just for example, assume the Lexus 4.6L would make 450hp @ 8000 rpm but would be horribly unreliable if ran at that RPM for any period of time. And then you compared it to some low reciprocating mass low displacement motor that CAN reliably make 450hp @ 8000rpm... does not mean that the second motor is more technologically advanced, because as we discussed above... there's a good chance that 450hp @ 8000rpm, while more reliable at 8000 rpm, it probably LESS reliable at 3000rpm than the Lexus 4.6L is at 4.6L is at 3000rpm. Add to that the fact that the Lexus probably has more power at 3000 rpm due to the fact that its power curve is compacted into a smaller space and due to the nature of having a higher displacement per cylinder.

So this is really just another example of why the Lexus 4.6 is well suited to people who won't be redlining it at every stop light, and a high revving exotic motor is better suited to people who would be redlining it at every stop light. Neither is better than the other - just well suited to their target audience.

LexFather

No offense but I question the age of ANYONE who compares a damn EXOTIC CAR engine or ANY SPORTS CAR engine hp per liter displacement against a luxury sedan.

That is ridiculous.

Those engines are for one LIMITED in production and MADE for SPORTS CARS. Of course they will have higher specific output than a luxury sedan.

No one said Lexus made the best engine. How hard is it for some people to just say" Wow, Lexus did a great job".

Sad.

Threxx

The people having this discussion - or at least me speaking for myself - we're/I'm not saying Lexus didn't do a great job. We're simply discussing the merits of how to define an impressive engine, costs be damned.

It's all the freaking ricers of the world who get so caught up in horsepower per liter.

HP/Liter means absolutely NOTHING in the scheme of things. Why not have HP/cylinder or HP/valve or HP/cam or HP/Compression ratio or HP/engine size or HP/fuel economy or avg HP per RPM or HP/noise dB, HP/length of service - heck maybe even HP/turbo so that the non-turbo guys can stick their nose in the air and turbo guys and say they get infinite HP per turbo.

Point being, if you are only looking at horsepower per displacement then you really don't understand how an engine works or the math behind a power curve... either that or you're knowingly ignorantly using it as a crutch to save face.

ff_

Hey, it was your argument. Didn't you say "Yet it only makes 2 less hp than the 1 liter bigger S550.... That is good engineering." Right?

Mr. Jones

You're comparing a low volume motor to a mass produced engine...umm okay.

The Ferrari's engine probably takes an entire day to build.

Mr. Jones

Weighs less because of good engineering too. Lighter transmission, engine, etc.