Looking to buy a new sub-$20K car..
10-22-06, 12:37 PM
#1
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 620
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looking to buy a new sub-$20K car..
I currently have a 99 Passat with 107K miles. It is starting to cost me a lot like $400 every 4 months or so. I was going to ride it out, but the dealer tells me it needs about $1000 and on top of that it just started to leak oil. So I figure I'd rather get someting new and not too expensive instead.
I am looking for a car UNDER $20K, probably in the $18K-$19K range (sale price).
I am looking for a manual tranny and a four cylinder sedan with FWD or AWD
I am leaning towards a Legacy (non-turbo) b/c I like it's awd and safety record. However it's not as roomy as an Accord or Camry.
I guess I am leaning towards a Japanese car so maybe a Mazda 6 or Altima can be in the mix.
I don't really want to test drive every single car in the price range so if you guys can give me some input it would be appreciated.
thanks
I am looking for a car UNDER $20K, probably in the $18K-$19K range (sale price).
I am looking for a manual tranny and a four cylinder sedan with FWD or AWD
I am leaning towards a Legacy (non-turbo) b/c I like it's awd and safety record. However it's not as roomy as an Accord or Camry.
I guess I am leaning towards a Japanese car so maybe a Mazda 6 or Altima can be in the mix.
I don't really want to test drive every single car in the price range so if you guys can give me some input it would be appreciated.
thanks
10-22-06, 04:18 PM
#2
Lexus Fanatic
Yes, I can give you advice...be glad to.
The Hyundai Sonata now competes with the best of the Japanese-nameplate cars in reliability, build quality, undercuts most of them on price, and outdoes them on both bumper-to-bumper and drivetrain warranty, though that long warranty is transferable, on resale, only to immediate family members. You can get a 4-cylinder Sonata for well under 20K, especially with incentives, and ( maybe ? ) even squeeze an under-20K V6 deal out of it if you can bargain well and if the dealership wants to sell.
If you don't care for the Sonata, give the similiar Kia Optima a look as well....it shares a common platform and drivetrain and generally costs even less. Kia is Hyundai-owned, so the warranties are similiar.
If you DO decide on a Hyundai or Kia product, keep in mind that this may be ( if rumor has it ) their last year for the 10 year/100,000 mile warranty....it may be phased out in 2008. So if you want one I would get it now.
As far as Japanese-nameplates go, the Accord and Camry are both available as 4-cylinders, but they will be harder to get for under 20K.....and dealers don't stock many manual-transmission models; you may have to order one or settle for the dealer's limited stock. You CAN sometimes get one for under 20K, but it will not be as easy as with the Korean-nameplate cars. Both the Camry and Accord, however, have impeccable engineering and build quality, although some new Camrys have had bad automatic transmissions that, fortunately, will not affect your manual-tranny car.
I have looked at and reviewed some mid-sized domeststic-nameplate sedans lately but IMO they still don't compare with the better Japanese-nameplate sedans in build quality. ( consult the CL search for specific reviews if I have done one ). And just because a car has a Japanese-nameplate does not necessarily signify build quality. The Altima, for example, for the last several years has not been very impressive overall except for its powerful V6, either in build quality or its cheaply-done interior ( slightly better last year ). Mitsubishi vehicles are also not reliable across the board.....some have been quite unreliable, others well-built, although the mid-size Galant has varied up and down in this area. The Mazda 6 is a nice car, fairly well-built, that has a firm feel and responsiveness to its suspension and steering, BMW-style ( like most Mazda products ) and a fairly good repair record that is not quite up in the Accord-Camry range. You should be able to pick one up for under 20K with bargaining and incentives.
The Corolla, Civic, Hyundai Elantra, and Kia Spectra are other good choices, and can be had for WAY under 20K......probably under 15K, but they might be a little boring or too small for your tastes, and the Civic has an odd 2-tier dashboard that takes some getting used to.
If you need a AWD sedan for foul or just plain wet weather and you want something larger than the super-low-price 15K Suzuki SX4 ( see my recent review ) of course look first at Subarus. Subaru wrote the book on how to do a comparatively simple, well-designed, inexpensive, quality AWD system, hooked to a low-center-of-gravity boxer-4 or boxer-6 engine. ( I have a non-turbo Outback myself and LOVE it, although with automatic and AWD it is low on power and uses some gas ). Added weight and drag, affecting power and gas mileage is one of the penalties you pay for the sure-footedness of AWD, but IMO it is worth it. The Suzuki SX4 I reviewed recently even had a switch that turns off the AWD and runs it in FWD instead when you don't need the traction ( Subarus don't have that feature yet ). Impreza sedans and wagons are easily available, with bargaining, for under 20K ( not as cheap as the Suzuki SX4 or Suzukis's own AWD Aerio sedan ). Legacys start around 20K or so, so, on the average, they will not go out the door as cheap as an Impreza, but should be available in the general price range you are looking for.
There is also an new, entry-level BASIC 2.5i Outback that Subaru has just introduced for 2007 that starts at 22K or so ( regular Outbacks start in the mid-20's) and dispenses with some of the features that the regular Outbacks have like 17" alloy wheels and heated seats / wipers. 20K out the door MAY be possible with bargaining and incentives...this will depend on the dealership.
Outbacks have much higher ground clearance then Legacys, handle almost as well in spite of that, and have tires that are better-suited for ride comfort and foul weather than Legacys, which are primarily AWD sport sedans. But if you choose ANY Subaru with the 2.5i non-turbo engine, even with a manual tranny, make sure, with AWD, it is not too slow for your tastes ( it is not too slow for mine ) .......power and acceleration is not this engine's strong suit in non-turbo form. Otherwise, Subarus are great buys, and I heartily recommend them in a second. Their unibodies, for example, are almost as strong ( and in some cases even stronger ) than in much more expensive Mercedes and Volvo safety-mobiles.
The Hyundai Sonata now competes with the best of the Japanese-nameplate cars in reliability, build quality, undercuts most of them on price, and outdoes them on both bumper-to-bumper and drivetrain warranty, though that long warranty is transferable, on resale, only to immediate family members. You can get a 4-cylinder Sonata for well under 20K, especially with incentives, and ( maybe ? ) even squeeze an under-20K V6 deal out of it if you can bargain well and if the dealership wants to sell.
If you don't care for the Sonata, give the similiar Kia Optima a look as well....it shares a common platform and drivetrain and generally costs even less. Kia is Hyundai-owned, so the warranties are similiar.
If you DO decide on a Hyundai or Kia product, keep in mind that this may be ( if rumor has it ) their last year for the 10 year/100,000 mile warranty....it may be phased out in 2008. So if you want one I would get it now.
As far as Japanese-nameplates go, the Accord and Camry are both available as 4-cylinders, but they will be harder to get for under 20K.....and dealers don't stock many manual-transmission models; you may have to order one or settle for the dealer's limited stock. You CAN sometimes get one for under 20K, but it will not be as easy as with the Korean-nameplate cars. Both the Camry and Accord, however, have impeccable engineering and build quality, although some new Camrys have had bad automatic transmissions that, fortunately, will not affect your manual-tranny car.
I have looked at and reviewed some mid-sized domeststic-nameplate sedans lately but IMO they still don't compare with the better Japanese-nameplate sedans in build quality. ( consult the CL search for specific reviews if I have done one ). And just because a car has a Japanese-nameplate does not necessarily signify build quality. The Altima, for example, for the last several years has not been very impressive overall except for its powerful V6, either in build quality or its cheaply-done interior ( slightly better last year ). Mitsubishi vehicles are also not reliable across the board.....some have been quite unreliable, others well-built, although the mid-size Galant has varied up and down in this area. The Mazda 6 is a nice car, fairly well-built, that has a firm feel and responsiveness to its suspension and steering, BMW-style ( like most Mazda products ) and a fairly good repair record that is not quite up in the Accord-Camry range. You should be able to pick one up for under 20K with bargaining and incentives.
The Corolla, Civic, Hyundai Elantra, and Kia Spectra are other good choices, and can be had for WAY under 20K......probably under 15K, but they might be a little boring or too small for your tastes, and the Civic has an odd 2-tier dashboard that takes some getting used to.
If you need a AWD sedan for foul or just plain wet weather and you want something larger than the super-low-price 15K Suzuki SX4 ( see my recent review ) of course look first at Subarus. Subaru wrote the book on how to do a comparatively simple, well-designed, inexpensive, quality AWD system, hooked to a low-center-of-gravity boxer-4 or boxer-6 engine. ( I have a non-turbo Outback myself and LOVE it, although with automatic and AWD it is low on power and uses some gas ). Added weight and drag, affecting power and gas mileage is one of the penalties you pay for the sure-footedness of AWD, but IMO it is worth it. The Suzuki SX4 I reviewed recently even had a switch that turns off the AWD and runs it in FWD instead when you don't need the traction ( Subarus don't have that feature yet ). Impreza sedans and wagons are easily available, with bargaining, for under 20K ( not as cheap as the Suzuki SX4 or Suzukis's own AWD Aerio sedan ). Legacys start around 20K or so, so, on the average, they will not go out the door as cheap as an Impreza, but should be available in the general price range you are looking for.
There is also an new, entry-level BASIC 2.5i Outback that Subaru has just introduced for 2007 that starts at 22K or so ( regular Outbacks start in the mid-20's) and dispenses with some of the features that the regular Outbacks have like 17" alloy wheels and heated seats / wipers. 20K out the door MAY be possible with bargaining and incentives...this will depend on the dealership.
Outbacks have much higher ground clearance then Legacys, handle almost as well in spite of that, and have tires that are better-suited for ride comfort and foul weather than Legacys, which are primarily AWD sport sedans. But if you choose ANY Subaru with the 2.5i non-turbo engine, even with a manual tranny, make sure, with AWD, it is not too slow for your tastes ( it is not too slow for mine ) .......power and acceleration is not this engine's strong suit in non-turbo form. Otherwise, Subarus are great buys, and I heartily recommend them in a second. Their unibodies, for example, are almost as strong ( and in some cases even stronger ) than in much more expensive Mercedes and Volvo safety-mobiles.
Last edited by mmarshall; 10-22-06 at 04:58 PM.
10-22-06, 05:02 PM
#4
Lexus Fanatic
The tC is in his price range but is not a sedan like he wants......it is a small coupe that is essentially the Celica replacement.
10-22-06, 06:00 PM
#5
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 620
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was hoping you would.
BTW thank you so much for a thoughful reply.
I have driven the new Civic and Fit (both with auto) and I dislike auto trannys especially in a small low power car. I believe it's more fun to drive such cars with a MT. However I did not think they were 'all that' considering the price was between $14K and $17K.
I didn't see about negotiating either b/c I was not in the market at that time and also they only had AT cars. I used to have an Accord (1995 or so) with I4 and MT and am sorry I got rid of it, there was something very honest about how it drove.
I have seen Legacy 2.5 SE (non-turbo) for internet no haggle price of $19K to $20K. I drove a Legacy Spec.B a few weeks ago when I was thinking about geting a more expensive car ($33K) but did not sample the non-turbo. But these no-haggle price difference of $13K is substantial and brings the Legacy (non-turbo) up on my list. I know about the poor gas mileage compared to the Accord or such, but that's a low priority for me with this car. My ex-GF had a 1993 Legacy GT with a 5-MT and that car was a lot of fun especially to drive in the snow. I know the 07 will not be the same as that car, but it does have some similar characteristics.
I plan on looking at the Camry/Accord but I know they are hard to find with MT. I have seen several non-turbo Legacy with MT.
I had not thought of Hyundai mainly b/c I'm still remembering them from 1986 when they sold cars for $4995 (LOL), but I keep hearing and reading good things about them. I was just checking out the Sonata on the web and I will see if I can test one with a MT.
I am looking for a I4 with MT mid-size sedan (or large-compact size)
I know there are V6s out there, but I don't care for 190hp+ with FWD.
I owned a V6 Maxima before I bought the I4 Accord both with MT and I have to say dispite being slower, the Accord was more balanced and just as fun to drive.
MT cars are hard to come by. Usually when I ask to see a MT car, the sales people look at me like I have three heads. But for me the MT serves a several purposes:
1) cheaper (should be)
2) more fun to drive especially with a small I4 engine.
3) extract more performance out of a small engine, I saw a Fit with MT tested about 2 seconds quicker than one with AT.
4) I was going to say better gas mileage but this is not always the case, the new Civic with AT gets 1 or 2 better HWY MPG than the MT.
I am interested more in an I4 or H4 b/c I don't need/want overkill power I like balance and prefer to wring out a small engine (see I have a S2000 not a corvette). Also these days the larger four cylinders like 2.4L or 2.5L are getting some of the performance of old-times V6 like I have in my Passat (2.8L V6 with 190hp). but are more simple and cheaper and better on gas than most V6s.
BTW thank you so much for a thoughful reply.
I have driven the new Civic and Fit (both with auto) and I dislike auto trannys especially in a small low power car. I believe it's more fun to drive such cars with a MT. However I did not think they were 'all that' considering the price was between $14K and $17K.
I didn't see about negotiating either b/c I was not in the market at that time and also they only had AT cars. I used to have an Accord (1995 or so) with I4 and MT and am sorry I got rid of it, there was something very honest about how it drove.
I have seen Legacy 2.5 SE (non-turbo) for internet no haggle price of $19K to $20K. I drove a Legacy Spec.B a few weeks ago when I was thinking about geting a more expensive car ($33K) but did not sample the non-turbo. But these no-haggle price difference of $13K is substantial and brings the Legacy (non-turbo) up on my list. I know about the poor gas mileage compared to the Accord or such, but that's a low priority for me with this car. My ex-GF had a 1993 Legacy GT with a 5-MT and that car was a lot of fun especially to drive in the snow. I know the 07 will not be the same as that car, but it does have some similar characteristics.
I plan on looking at the Camry/Accord but I know they are hard to find with MT. I have seen several non-turbo Legacy with MT.
I had not thought of Hyundai mainly b/c I'm still remembering them from 1986 when they sold cars for $4995 (LOL), but I keep hearing and reading good things about them. I was just checking out the Sonata on the web and I will see if I can test one with a MT.
I am looking for a I4 with MT mid-size sedan (or large-compact size)
I know there are V6s out there, but I don't care for 190hp+ with FWD.
I owned a V6 Maxima before I bought the I4 Accord both with MT and I have to say dispite being slower, the Accord was more balanced and just as fun to drive.
MT cars are hard to come by. Usually when I ask to see a MT car, the sales people look at me like I have three heads. But for me the MT serves a several purposes:
1) cheaper (should be)
2) more fun to drive especially with a small I4 engine.
3) extract more performance out of a small engine, I saw a Fit with MT tested about 2 seconds quicker than one with AT.
4) I was going to say better gas mileage but this is not always the case, the new Civic with AT gets 1 or 2 better HWY MPG than the MT.
I am interested more in an I4 or H4 b/c I don't need/want overkill power I like balance and prefer to wring out a small engine (see I have a S2000 not a corvette). Also these days the larger four cylinders like 2.4L or 2.5L are getting some of the performance of old-times V6 like I have in my Passat (2.8L V6 with 190hp). but are more simple and cheaper and better on gas than most V6s.
Last edited by rai; 10-22-06 at 06:29 PM.
10-22-06, 06:25 PM
#6
Lexus Fanatic
The Fit is an excellent small car but a classic price ripoff. Honda dealers are profiteering up the a** with this car from the current high demand and low supply. The bright red Fit I reviewed a few months ago ( see my review in CAR CHAT history ) was not only marked up some $4000-$5000 over factory-list but, uncharacteristic for Honda, had a sharp, poorly-finished sheet-metal plate seam under the outdside hood latch that gave my finger a rather nasty cut, requiring a butterfly bandage at the dealership and about a half-hour wait for it to close up and stop bleeding before the test-drive.
10-22-06, 06:36 PM
#7
Lexus Champion
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 2,175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you're looking for a MT - I think the best package available (taking your preferences/reqs into account) is the Subaru Legacy 2.5i SE 5spd (MSRP $21,420). You'll save quite a lot with the Hyundai Sonata but long-term reliability of the new Sonata (no longer manufactured in Korea) has yet to be seen. The only Sonata available with the manual transmission is the lowest trim level (the GLS) which includes the basics - and there is a "sport package" (add $1700) available which adds 17 inch alloys (replacing 15" w/ wheelcovers), fogs, power driver's seat, trip computer and some interior accents. As for Hyundai's warranty - while very impressive on paper, can be less than stellar in practice as dealerships tend to skirt all issues but those affecting driveability of the vehicle (personal/family experience with a Kia Optima and long hours reading Hyundai/Kia forums talking here). Also, with the Subaru, you'll get one of the best interiors for the money and a great all wheel drive (full-time AWD) system.
I'm not saying the Hyundai Sonata is a bad car - I'm just saying it's still a bit of a gamble. But if $3000 is worth a few potential headaches, the Sonata is still probably money well spent.
Good luck.
M.
I'm not saying the Hyundai Sonata is a bad car - I'm just saying it's still a bit of a gamble. But if $3000 is worth a few potential headaches, the Sonata is still probably money well spent.
Good luck.
M.
Last edited by videcormeum; 10-22-06 at 06:46 PM.
Trending Topics
10-22-06, 06:42 PM
#8
Lexus Fanatic
However, keep in mind that Outback interiors come in either beige with wood paneling and brushed-metal, or black with only silver/brushed metal. Legacys, as far as I know, offer only the black/silver trim combo....one of Subaru's past marketing mistakes, IMO, though that may change to some extent for 2007.
Last edited by mmarshall; 10-22-06 at 06:48 PM.
10-22-06, 06:52 PM
#9
Lexus Fanatic
You'll save quite a lot with the Hyundai Sonata but long-term reliability of the new Sonata (no longer manufactured in Korea) has yet to be seen.
I'm not saying the Hyundai Sonata is a bad car - I'm just saying it's still a bit of a gamble. But if $3000 is worth a few potential headaches, the Sonata is still probably money well spent.
Good luck.
M.
I'm not saying the Hyundai Sonata is a bad car - I'm just saying it's still a bit of a gamble. But if $3000 is worth a few potential headaches, the Sonata is still probably money well spent.
Good luck.
M.
10-22-06, 07:18 PM
#10
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 620
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I just drove a Spec.B Legacy, this was before when I thought I was buying a nicer car. But the car I am about to buy is a shared car with out live in nanny and I don't feel like getting top shelf features and price to match for a car I want more as basic transportation.
I only say about the Spec.B is b/c I liked it a lot but there was many forced features like NAV system that bring the price way up, and I didn't realize a non-turbo Legacy could be had for about $20K (actually I have seen one for about $19,300 with MT which is almost half the price of a Spec.B, and it's not stripped the 2.5 SE has all essential features).
I will hold off buying my personal car for another year or two and in the mean time I will be driving this car a bit. I don't want to get a bad/cheap car. We used to own an Escort and while I can see the value of such very low dollar cars, that's not what I'm after.
I will let you guys know how it works out as I shop around.
Thanks
I only say about the Spec.B is b/c I liked it a lot but there was many forced features like NAV system that bring the price way up, and I didn't realize a non-turbo Legacy could be had for about $20K (actually I have seen one for about $19,300 with MT which is almost half the price of a Spec.B, and it's not stripped the 2.5 SE has all essential features).
I will hold off buying my personal car for another year or two and in the mean time I will be driving this car a bit. I don't want to get a bad/cheap car. We used to own an Escort and while I can see the value of such very low dollar cars, that's not what I'm after.
I will let you guys know how it works out as I shop around.
Thanks
Last edited by rai; 10-22-06 at 07:22 PM.
10-22-06, 07:28 PM
#11
Lexus Fanatic
I just drove a Spec.B Legacy, this was before when I thought I was buying a nicer car. But the car I am about to buy is a shared car with out live in nanny and I don't feel like getting top shelf features and price to match for a car I want more as basic transportation.
I only say about the Spec.B is b/c I liked it a lot but there was many forced features like NAV system that bring the price way up, and I didn't realize a non-turbo Legacy could be had for about $20K (actually I have seen one for about $19,300 with MT which is almost half the price of a Spec.B, and it's not stripped the 2.5 SE has all essential features).
I will hold off buying my personal car for another year or two and in the mean time I will be driving this car a bit. I don't want to get a bad/cheap car. We used to own an Escort and while I can see the value of such very low dollar cars, that's not what I'm after.
I will let you guys know how it works out as I shop around.
Thanks
I only say about the Spec.B is b/c I liked it a lot but there was many forced features like NAV system that bring the price way up, and I didn't realize a non-turbo Legacy could be had for about $20K (actually I have seen one for about $19,300 with MT which is almost half the price of a Spec.B, and it's not stripped the 2.5 SE has all essential features).
I will hold off buying my personal car for another year or two and in the mean time I will be driving this car a bit. I don't want to get a bad/cheap car. We used to own an Escort and while I can see the value of such very low dollar cars, that's not what I'm after.
I will let you guys know how it works out as I shop around.
Thanks
The regular bread-and-butter Legacy with the 2.5i non-turbo engine is much more up your alley......just make sure that it is not too sluggish for you. As I said earlier, that engine is not exactly NHRA Pro-Stock acceleration.
10-22-06, 08:31 PM
#12
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 620
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Spec. B, besides being a lmited-production model and hard to get, will cost well over 20K, have the turbo you don't want, use expensive premium gas, require special start-up and shut-down idling techniques, and, with the performance suspension and tires, will ride rough over all but glass-smooth roads.
The regular bread-and-butter Legacy with the 2.5i non-turbo engine is much more up your alley......just make sure that it is not too sluggish for you. As I said earlier, that engine is not exactly NHRA Pro-Stock acceleration.
The regular bread-and-butter Legacy with the 2.5i non-turbo engine is much more up your alley......just make sure that it is not too sluggish for you. As I said earlier, that engine is not exactly NHRA Pro-Stock acceleration.
I don't want a car for my nanny that requires premium gas.
10-23-06, 01:23 AM
#14
Rookie
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How about the Mazda 3. I test drove this car (hatchback) a few months ago and it was a lot of fun . You also get a lot of standard features for a very good price. Reliability has been great.
. You also get a lot of standard features for a very good price. Reliability has been great.
10-23-06, 03:12 AM
#15
Lexus Fanatic
I agree, I want to have a good test drive before I decide on anything. I know the 2.5 non-turbo only has 175hp 2.5L H4 but then I'm replacing a Passat which only had 190hp 2.8L V6 so the performance should be similar.
I don't want a car for my nanny that requires premium gas.
I don't want a car for my nanny that requires premium gas.