DrUnBiased

Okay. I was just staying on topic. Anyways, the huge gap between Lexus branded vehicles vs BMW branded vehicles should be apparent to all now.

Gojirra99

Everything on car sales is on topic in this thread, & there are many different ways you can group cars together to compare sales between different manufacturers. How about trying to look at who sell the most station wagons ? Lexus will lose badly since they have none . They have less convertibles & coupes & diesels(which are key to Europeans) also so they won't look good in that regard too. If you look at hybrids then Lexus wins, but some may say "who cares ?"

For me, the entire overall picture is the most important, not what logo's they put on the car, if you just look at the brand ALONE, that's a distorted picture, that's what my post is all about

DrUnBiased

I understand. I was just trying to do the most apple to apple comparison, which I did. Basically, this all started when someone posted some misleading information regarding BMW sales vs Lexus. Which is why I did a BMW and Lexus sales comparison, and not Toyota and BMW. Many people try to seperate Lexus from Toyota as much as they can. But I guess they like to be grouped together when it helps.

encore888

Over time I have become more comfortable with the Lexus/Toyota connection, namely because to me there is less and less a stigma as Toyota's reputation continues to rise. But I think it is fair at times to split hairs...just imagine if Toyota were Lexus entirely, and the whole range was competing...against companies like Benz and BMW.

Lexus is now #4 overall global luxury brand in just 17 years is pretty amazing already.

Gojirra99

It also depends on how you define an apple, you define it by the logo on the cars, others may define it as the actual content of the cars themselves, etc.

There's no misleading info posted, just hard #'s provided by the press releases, now these #'s are sometimes twisted by some to try to make a point in the past, but both are doing well & gaining YTD, just that Lexus maybe gaining more I think recently in USA, & these monthly sales thread are always about USA #'s anyway. They will double sales in Europe this year too with the new IS with diesel included introduced, but of course from a much smaller base.
It's a fact that if you group them together in what's being discussed, the real overall picture won't be as distorted, so there's nothing wrong with that at all.

People want to seperate Lexus & Toyota just because they hear Lexus is a glorified Toyota(either as just a joke, or real ignorance) from some, same will apply to an Acura RL too, but RL is a great car, that's what should matter the most to the owners, if you pick the RL over a BMW, obviously it's a better car for you, it shouldn't matter whether the RL & it's Honda equivalent Legend is selling less than a 5 series worldwide, should it? Maybe you should feel sorry for the people in other countries who missed the opportunity to choose the RL (& Lexus cars) just because their distribution network in places like Europe is so much more limited & undeveloped than the established European brands, that their choices are more limited ?

XeroK00L

Sorry but you totally missed my point. I'm saying the reason that IS+ES > 3 is the fact that ES eats into the midsize luxury sedan market when the 3 does not. The fact is that the ES does compete with the 5 and the GS when buyers choose to shop by size, so saying IS+ES > 3 is simply ignoring this fact. The ES is such an oddball in the typical sedan lineups of 3 sizes (compact, midsize and large) of luxury car brands that you can't force it in just one category. The ES is both "entry" (in terms of price) and "midsize" (in terms of size). So a fair comparison has to be done with both the entry and midsize sedans are included, and thus IS+ES+GS < 3+5.

Am I making sense now?

BTW, just because Lexus designs the IS's interior inefficiently doesn't mean the IS is a coupe. MB's marketing can call the CLS a coupe only because it doesn't have a B-pillar. But the IS has a B-pillar and is a sedan in every meaningful way.

Gojirra99

I see what you're saying, but the way you compare their sales you did is still not perfect, since it's based on "buyers shopping by size", but how about buyers shopping by "2 door or 4 doors", buyers shopping by "convertibles" & "wagons", buyers shopping by "FWD/RWD", buyers shopping by "luxury & ride comfort orientation vs. sportiness orientation"and buyers shopping by "horsepower" etc. & etc., these are not factored in, & thus comparing "IS+ES+GS" and "3+5 series" is still questionable ? Lexus still does not have enough variants of their models, & you can't sell what you don't offer.
I said that jokingly, but the IS doesn't have enough legroom for people above average height to be comfortable in it for an extended ride is a fact, the headroom is actually still better than the CLS, I am generally referring to how useful/comfortable the rear seats are to passengers, more so than whether the car have a B-pillar.

XeroK00L

Entry luxury sedans, midsize luxury sedans, we hear such categorizations for marketing and sales analysis all the time. No need for going into such technical details such as horsepower or drivetrain layout. I'm just trying to point out the fact that the ES happens to fit in two of the most commonly used categorizations here, thereby making the sales analysis more meaningful. Anyway, I'm not here to argue, but just to make people aware of this unique market position that the ES holds before saying IS+ES > 3.Well in that case Rolls Royce should probably call their upcoming 101EX a 2-door sedan because it seats its rear passengers comfortably.

Come on, a sedan has 4 doors and a coupe has 2 doors. It's just that simple.

Gojirra99

These generalized categories happen to be imperfect too, since entry level luxury usually means price range more so than size to me, & i think for the middle category, they should use mid-level rather than mid-size. I don't think it's unique for the ES, the Infiniti G35 sedan & the Acura TL (as spacious as the RL inside) are entry level in price, but are actually mid-size, not a compact sedan like the IS. 3 years ago, there are people in the G35 forums already saying what a good deal the G35 sedan is, entry level luxury price, but 5 series in sizeI actually always agree with you on this, I always regard the CLS as a sedan since it has 4 doors. I would cross shop it with the GS although the rear seats are not as practical

DrUnBiased

Okay, no offense intended but this is really starting to turn into a joke.

An apple to apple comparison is Lexus vs. BMW. One luxury car company versus another. There is nothing else to it. If Toyota wanted to be 'less distorted' in their press releases, they too would also combine all sales and call Lexus the number one car brand in the world. They don't. Why? Because it wouldn't be true and they would be the only company in the world to do that. If combining the sales of Toyota to, it would make things MUCH more distorted. Thats probably why no one else has ever done that here when comparing LEXUS vs. BMW. Does this make sense to you?

The picture was not distorted at all here. Why? Because I compared the sales of BMW branded vehicles to Lexus branded vehicles. On top of that, I subtracted the sales of two of the best selling BMW vehicles in the lineup to show that BMW branded vehicles still outsold Lexus branded vehicles. When someone asks you how many Scions Toyota sold, do you tell them how many Scion badged cars sold or how many Scion badged cars sold plus how many cars that COULD be branded as a Scion sold?

I'm a consumer you meet on the street and would like to know global sales numbers for BMW and Lexus. Can you tell me, an average car person (99% of the people on this planet), which car company sells more cars?

Try combining Toyota sales while explaining that to the consumer and the image becomes VERY distorted.

Yes, I said this same thing in my last post already. There is a reason why I have a Lexus and not a BMW. But thank you for reiterating my point.

Anyways, this is clearly going no where so I'm done with this subject. I'll look for your reply but I'm not gonna bother to repeat myself.

Gojirra99

It's not a joke at all, I think you are twisting what I meant now. I never said in any of my posts that Toyota should combine the TOTAL sales of the Lexus & Toyota brands into one & call it ONE luxury brand. Just that the higher price/luxury Toyota cars/vans/SUV's should be given some recognition as well in reply to your post regarding grouping Toyota & Lexus together.
I DON"T EVEN CARE ABOUT THE BRAND NAME NOR THE LOGO ON THE CAR, much less combining all Toyota sales into Lexus.

My point is still, & i think I have repeated myself many times already, that comparing the luxury car sales made by Toyota BY BRAND is a distorted a picture, since they make non-Lexus brand luxury cars too, but Toyota is not a luxury brand.

OTOH, BMW, & Mercedes can make an econobox, which competes with Toyota's ,Honda's, VW's & Nissans etc., will still count towards BMW/MB sales, & they are regarded as a luxury brand. In that sense, when you add up their total sales as ALL LUXURY CARS & compare them with another manufacturer like Toyota who split their higher end & lower end cars into two different brands, only one of which a luxury brand, it's a VERY distorted picture, there's absolutely no question about that.
The difference in sales of ACTUAL LUXURY CARS REGARDLESS OF THE LOGO ON THEM will not be reflected accurately. BMW/MB has an inherent advantage in Europe, which is a big market, anyway since they are non-imports there & are as widely used as Ford's, etc.here.
If you don't want to count the higher priced Toyota's (worldwide) as luxury vehicles that's within the price range/luxury level of a BMW, that's fine too, but the point is, the differentiation becomes blurred, & in other words, it's always difficult to make a direct & completely fair comparison between the 2 manufacturers in "luxury vehicles" sales now or in the future.

If you go by just the logo on the car, which is what you want to talk about, regardless of whether ALL the cars are actually luxury cars or not, then of course it won't be distorted BY THAT DEFINITION, but that's NOT what I am talking about. Nobody have to go by your definition only & discuss what you want to talk about only, & vice versa. There are different angles from which you can look at it.

LexFather

Great point. Worldwide, Lexus has only one 4 cylinder car and that is the 220d diesal and it is the first Lexus 4 cylinder. Lexus has always either had V-6s or V-8s or I-6s standard.
BMW has
1 series
No joke, 28 versions of the 3 series in Europe including 4 cylinders.
Those are BREAD AND BUTTER cars. Even the low hp 525 is the value seller for the 5 series.
Mercedes has
A-class
B-class
C-class hatchback

Those are value cars. Lexus offers nothing comparable or as cheap.

So for Lexus to sell so well WITHOUT tons of 4 cylinder sales and hatchbacks and mini-cars is commedable.

RNM GS3

WOW..........The GS & IS are doing horrible. I guess that new 3.5 v6 couldn't save the GS.

How is the G35 outselling the IS?? Its about to get redesigned & IS just came out.
Hopefully, these sales #s show Lexus that they need to offer more SPORT in their luxury-sport sedans.

GSteg

iTrader: (15)

all the kids want the G35 nowadays. It appeals to the younger and older crowd. Plus it cost less than the IS250/350.

I wouldn't say the IS is doing horrible. Horrible relative to the 3 series (9000+ ), but not horrible when you're looking at 3500/month.

TRDFantasy

Yes, very horrible they are doing . Lexus is still the TOP luxury automaker sales-wise in North America, what more do you want?

And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why the G35 is selling more: first off, the new G35 just came out, so there is a bit of initial demand. Secondly, G35 has Coupe, while IS series does not (yet). And lastly, G35 is cheaper on average by several thousand compared to an IS.

IS for the past few months was easily selling above 4K. It goes below 4K in only one month, and all of you Lexus critics pounce instantly. Ironic, because some of you critics are Lexus owners too, which makes it even more mind-boggling as to why there is such unreasonable and unfair criticism towards Lexus, on a Lexus owner's forum no less, while MB and BMW are actually praised. Mind boggling .