Have Audi/Volks ever build RWD cars?
11-14-06, 04:39 AM
#16
Out of Warranty
Auto Union . . . "die Silberpfeile"
The company that is today's Audi is an amalgam of NSU and Auto Union - a company that itself was a conglomeration of four companies: Wanderer, DKW, Audi and Horch; hence the four rings, one for each company, on the badge. Audi-NSU was formed in 1969, and became Audi some sixteen years later.
Auto Union was the great racing rival to Mercedes from about 1932 to 1938, and the "Silver Arrows" of the German automakers dominated GP racing. Audi fielded a unique car in these events - a series of mid-engined RWD cars, culminating in the D-Type. The cars were exceptionally light, their frame formed of chrome-moly steel and the body fabricated from aluminum. The story goes that the paint was even eliminated from the body of these rivals for weight savings, and the resulting bare-metal finish gave Germany its traditional racing "silver" color.
The Auto Union C-type single seat GP car, fielded in 1937 possessed a wheelbase of over NINE FEET, and was powered by a supercharged V-16 engine that developed 540 hp out of 6.3 liters, with 14 lbs of boost.
Photo Courtesy www.dyna.co.za
Photo Courtesy www.autounion.org.uk
They competed successfully in GP and "mountain climb" races (a newer D-type shown above) and were national institutions. The drivers of these cars, Hans Stuck, Bernd Rosemeyer, and the Italians, Nuvolari and Varzi were the finest of their era.
The Auto Union cars produced HUGE amounts of torque from that big V-16 engine, and despite it's mid-chassis residence, the rearward weight bias meant the cars were capable of truly lurid tail slides that became their trademark in competition. Handling of these monsters was at best, vicious, with all of that engine, gearbox, and rear axle so far aft, and the driver sitting in some models, with his feet actually forward of the front axle.
Their drivers had to be exceptionally brave men, considering they did not compete on today's billiard-table smooth tracks, plus the fact that those lightweight cars had only two or four-shoe drum brakes and no provision for driver protection, save for a cotton cap and goggles. These precision machines were incredible expressions of the builders art, and were capable of top speeds of 195 mph.
Did Audi build an RWD car? Oh, yeah!
Auto Union was the great racing rival to Mercedes from about 1932 to 1938, and the "Silver Arrows" of the German automakers dominated GP racing. Audi fielded a unique car in these events - a series of mid-engined RWD cars, culminating in the D-Type. The cars were exceptionally light, their frame formed of chrome-moly steel and the body fabricated from aluminum. The story goes that the paint was even eliminated from the body of these rivals for weight savings, and the resulting bare-metal finish gave Germany its traditional racing "silver" color.
The Auto Union C-type single seat GP car, fielded in 1937 possessed a wheelbase of over NINE FEET, and was powered by a supercharged V-16 engine that developed 540 hp out of 6.3 liters, with 14 lbs of boost.
Photo Courtesy www.dyna.co.za
Photo Courtesy www.autounion.org.uk
They competed successfully in GP and "mountain climb" races (a newer D-type shown above) and were national institutions. The drivers of these cars, Hans Stuck, Bernd Rosemeyer, and the Italians, Nuvolari and Varzi were the finest of their era.
The Auto Union cars produced HUGE amounts of torque from that big V-16 engine, and despite it's mid-chassis residence, the rearward weight bias meant the cars were capable of truly lurid tail slides that became their trademark in competition. Handling of these monsters was at best, vicious, with all of that engine, gearbox, and rear axle so far aft, and the driver sitting in some models, with his feet actually forward of the front axle.
Their drivers had to be exceptionally brave men, considering they did not compete on today's billiard-table smooth tracks, plus the fact that those lightweight cars had only two or four-shoe drum brakes and no provision for driver protection, save for a cotton cap and goggles. These precision machines were incredible expressions of the builders art, and were capable of top speeds of 195 mph.
Did Audi build an RWD car? Oh, yeah!
Last edited by Lil4X; 11-14-06 at 07:20 AM. Reason: Adding photo
11-14-06, 08:26 AM
#18
Lexus Fanatic
All VW products up until the mid-1970's were RWD with rear-mounted, air-cooled, flat-4 engines, including the Karman ( Ghia ).
The Dasher, in 1974, introduced FWD and liquid-cooled engines to the VW line, and was an extremely unreliable car...the Rabbit ( Golf ) , which followed in 1975, was no better. Even today, in the 21st century, VW FWD liquid-cooled vehicles are STILL worse than average in reliability.
11-14-06, 02:01 PM
#19
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, sciroco and Corrado where both FWD cars.
11-14-06, 03:18 PM
#20
Lexus Fanatic
Enzo would come out of the grave if he knew that the car was named for him in the first place.
Remember the posts I made on this subject time ago? Enzo himself didn't really care for sports and racing cars in his personal life.....to him they were a buisness, not pleasure. He himself drove, as his personal car.......get this........a Fiat 128 econobox.
Remember the posts I made on this subject time ago? Enzo himself didn't really care for sports and racing cars in his personal life.....to him they were a buisness, not pleasure. He himself drove, as his personal car.......get this........a Fiat 128 econobox.
11-14-06, 04:58 PM
#21
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My Return
I havn't posted here since I dumped my LS400 for a Scion xA (really really good gas mileage, and looks nice when dropped and modded and surprisingly fun to drive, you should try it). I have since moved on to a Scion tC (good balance of fuel economy, price justification, and style). A couple of years from now (and a promotion or two later) I will be in an LS460.
I havn't posted for over two years, but this thread has boiled my blood to make me return.
YES!!!!!! TOYOTA MAKES RWD CARS!!!!! It's called the MR2 Spyder. . . Now if it had the Celica GT-S motor it would probably attract more attention, but with it's base Corolla motor, it largely goes ignored. The previous generation MR2. . . now that was a cool car. Remember Lexus is Toyota Motor Corp. . . just marketed to a different segment (and that's why the features are different).
The Supra was RWD, and it was very unpopular when it was discontinued. Dealer's struggled to sell them. Only until recently has it become popular again. The fact of the matter is that when it comes to non-premium cars, most people do not care about RWD vs FWD, except for us car freaks. Now premium cars on the other hand. . . it's not that Toyota is too cheap to offer, RWD (they do, and it rarely sells). It's that they provide the supply for which there is demand (that's why most Lexus's come in RWD).
Then again, some companies only do it to cut costs *cough* Acura *cough* VW *cough* Audi
I havn't posted for over two years, but this thread has boiled my blood to make me return.
YES!!!!!! TOYOTA MAKES RWD CARS!!!!! It's called the MR2 Spyder. . . Now if it had the Celica GT-S motor it would probably attract more attention, but with it's base Corolla motor, it largely goes ignored. The previous generation MR2. . . now that was a cool car. Remember Lexus is Toyota Motor Corp. . . just marketed to a different segment (and that's why the features are different).
The Supra was RWD, and it was very unpopular when it was discontinued. Dealer's struggled to sell them. Only until recently has it become popular again. The fact of the matter is that when it comes to non-premium cars, most people do not care about RWD vs FWD, except for us car freaks. Now premium cars on the other hand. . . it's not that Toyota is too cheap to offer, RWD (they do, and it rarely sells). It's that they provide the supply for which there is demand (that's why most Lexus's come in RWD).
Then again, some companies only do it to cut costs *cough* Acura *cough* VW *cough* Audi
11-14-06, 05:02 PM
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Sorry, I didn't mean to make that sound rude either. I troll here just about everyday. . . CL is the best source for automotive info, and probably the most mature and educated forums out there. . .
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11-14-06, 05:14 PM
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I havn't posted here since I dumped my LS400 for a Scion xA (really really good gas mileage, and looks nice when dropped and modded and surprisingly fun to drive, you should try it). I have since moved on to a Scion tC (good balance of fuel economy, price justification, and style). A couple of years from now (and a promotion or two later) I will be in an LS460.
I havn't posted for over two years, but this thread has boiled my blood to make me return.
YES!!!!!! TOYOTA MAKES RWD CARS!!!!! It's called the MR2 Spyder. . . Now if it had the Celica GT-S motor it would probably attract more attention, but with it's base Corolla motor, it largely goes ignored. The previous generation MR2. . . now that was a cool car. Remember Lexus is Toyota Motor Corp. . . just marketed to a different segment (and that's why the features are different).
The Supra was RWD, and it was very unpopular when it was discontinued. Dealer's struggled to sell them. Only until recently has it become popular again. The fact of the matter is that when it comes to non-premium cars, most people do not care about RWD vs FWD, except for us car freaks. Now premium cars on the other hand. . . it's not that Toyota is too cheap to offer, RWD (they do, and it rarely sells). It's that they provide the supply for which there is demand (that's why most Lexus's come in RWD).
Then again, some companies only do it to cut costs *cough* Acura *cough* VW *cough* Audi
I havn't posted for over two years, but this thread has boiled my blood to make me return.
YES!!!!!! TOYOTA MAKES RWD CARS!!!!! It's called the MR2 Spyder. . . Now if it had the Celica GT-S motor it would probably attract more attention, but with it's base Corolla motor, it largely goes ignored. The previous generation MR2. . . now that was a cool car. Remember Lexus is Toyota Motor Corp. . . just marketed to a different segment (and that's why the features are different).
The Supra was RWD, and it was very unpopular when it was discontinued. Dealer's struggled to sell them. Only until recently has it become popular again. The fact of the matter is that when it comes to non-premium cars, most people do not care about RWD vs FWD, except for us car freaks. Now premium cars on the other hand. . . it's not that Toyota is too cheap to offer, RWD (they do, and it rarely sells). It's that they provide the supply for which there is demand (that's why most Lexus's come in RWD).
Then again, some companies only do it to cut costs *cough* Acura *cough* VW *cough* Audi
11-14-06, 05:16 PM
#24
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11-14-06, 05:39 PM
#27
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Here's how the Haldex system works:
Where: Starting from 1998 quattro has become just a trade mark and it does not indicate that all wheel drive system with Torsen differential is used on the vehicle any more. Vehicles with transverse engine mounting (Audi A3/S3 quattro, Audi TT quattro) are equipped with Haldex automatic all wheel drive. The same type of automatic all wheel drive is used on VW Golf/Bora/Jetta 4motion (Mark IV 1998-2005, Mark V 2003-), VW Sharan 4motion (2001-) and other Volkswagen AG vehicles with transverse engine mounting – Seat and Skoda.
What: Automatic all wheel drive.
Haldex multiplate clutch with electronic control acting as a center differential.
Open rear differential, EDL on some models (not proved).
Open front differential, EDL.
How: Normally front wheel drive vehicle. In normal driving conditions 100% of torque transferred to front axle. When slipping occurs, Haldex multiplate clutch locks and up to 100% of torque is automatically transferred to rear axle. Haldex clutch offers instant activation – it locks as soon as one driveshaft travels just 1/8 of a turn further than the other. Front wheels do just 1/4 of a turn before AWD is activated. Accompanied by EDL on front wheels, in on-road conditions the car will not move if both front and one rear wheels lose traction.
Again, due to limitations of Electronic Differential Lock (see quattro IV description above), if off-road conditions it is enough for one front and one rear wheel to lose traction and the car will not move.
The Haldex system is more reactive than preventative; the Torsen's even power split under non-slipping conditions makes slipping less likely to start, while the Haldex's greater torque split under slipping conditions is helpful for recovery.
Haldex Electronic Control Unit disengages the clutch as soon as brakes are applied to allow ABS work properly; it also disengages the clutch when handbrake is pulled to allow “handbrake turns”. When performing tight low-speed turns (e.g. parking) the clutch is disengaged by Electronic Control Unit to avoid wind-up in transmission.
Pros: Claimed better fuel economy when compared to full-time all wheel drive. Instant activation with no driver intervention.
Cons: Full-time all wheel drive is better. Some say Haldex system has less predictable behavior when cornering in snow than permanent all wheel drive systems. Other say there is nothing wrong with it; it is just a little different.
What: Automatic all wheel drive.
Haldex multiplate clutch with electronic control acting as a center differential.
Open rear differential, EDL on some models (not proved).
Open front differential, EDL.
How: Normally front wheel drive vehicle. In normal driving conditions 100% of torque transferred to front axle. When slipping occurs, Haldex multiplate clutch locks and up to 100% of torque is automatically transferred to rear axle. Haldex clutch offers instant activation – it locks as soon as one driveshaft travels just 1/8 of a turn further than the other. Front wheels do just 1/4 of a turn before AWD is activated. Accompanied by EDL on front wheels, in on-road conditions the car will not move if both front and one rear wheels lose traction.
Again, due to limitations of Electronic Differential Lock (see quattro IV description above), if off-road conditions it is enough for one front and one rear wheel to lose traction and the car will not move.
The Haldex system is more reactive than preventative; the Torsen's even power split under non-slipping conditions makes slipping less likely to start, while the Haldex's greater torque split under slipping conditions is helpful for recovery.
Haldex Electronic Control Unit disengages the clutch as soon as brakes are applied to allow ABS work properly; it also disengages the clutch when handbrake is pulled to allow “handbrake turns”. When performing tight low-speed turns (e.g. parking) the clutch is disengaged by Electronic Control Unit to avoid wind-up in transmission.
Pros: Claimed better fuel economy when compared to full-time all wheel drive. Instant activation with no driver intervention.
Cons: Full-time all wheel drive is better. Some say Haldex system has less predictable behavior when cornering in snow than permanent all wheel drive systems. Other say there is nothing wrong with it; it is just a little different.
Where: Starting from 1998 on Audi A4/S4, Audi A6/S6, Audi A8/S8 with both manual and automatic transmissions. Also on VW Passat B5 4motion. Manually locking rear differential replaced by Electronic Differential Lock (Difflock imitation, detects wheelspin via ABS sensors and applies brakes to spinning wheels thus transferring torque via open differential to another wheel which has more traction). EDL works at speeds up to 40 km/h (25 mph), on more powerful versions such as S4/S6/S8 - up to 80 km/h (50 mph). In addition to EDL, Audi A8/S8 limits engine rpm when excessive wheelspin occurs.
What: Permanent all wheel drive.
Torsen center differential, 50/50 split, automatically locking with up to 80% of torque transfer to either axle.
Open rear differential, Electronic Differential Lock.
Open front differential, Electronic Differential Lock.
How: This is a superb all wheel drive system for on-road car. In on-road conditions the car will not move if all four wheels lose traction. Torsen effect with one wheel in the air will not happen on quattro IV because Electronic Differential Lock will apply brakes to spinning wheel and Torsen differential will transfer torque to rear axle.
In off-road conditions (wheels in the air and an obstacle restricting the vehicle from moving forward) the car will not move further when one front and one rear wheels lose traction. The reason of this behavior is that Electronic Differential Lock is not a replacement for mechanical differential lock and it is not able to transfer enough torque to another wheel. The car will end up spinning one front and one rear wheel with crackling EDL trying to stop them from spinning.
Pros: Superb all weather full-time all wheel drive, no driver intervention.
Cons: no major flaws.
What: Permanent all wheel drive.
Torsen center differential, 50/50 split, automatically locking with up to 80% of torque transfer to either axle.
Open rear differential, Electronic Differential Lock.
Open front differential, Electronic Differential Lock.
How: This is a superb all wheel drive system for on-road car. In on-road conditions the car will not move if all four wheels lose traction. Torsen effect with one wheel in the air will not happen on quattro IV because Electronic Differential Lock will apply brakes to spinning wheel and Torsen differential will transfer torque to rear axle.
In off-road conditions (wheels in the air and an obstacle restricting the vehicle from moving forward) the car will not move further when one front and one rear wheels lose traction. The reason of this behavior is that Electronic Differential Lock is not a replacement for mechanical differential lock and it is not able to transfer enough torque to another wheel. The car will end up spinning one front and one rear wheel with crackling EDL trying to stop them from spinning.
Pros: Superb all weather full-time all wheel drive, no driver intervention.
Cons: no major flaws.
Of course the Wikipedia is now out of date and Audi now uses the more sophisticated Fifth Generation of Quattro which can transfer up to 100% of the torque to either axel and the the default setting is 40% front and 60% rear torque distribution.
11-14-06, 06:42 PM
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I know that the Quattro is very good & impressive...but they are not as sporty as RWD...
Actually almost all the Audi/Volks cars are FWD if they are not installed with Quattro...
Actually almost all the Audi/Volks cars are FWD if they are not installed with Quattro...
11-14-06, 07:16 PM
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Touche. . .
I agree for the most part, but disagree to some extent. The MOST expensive element of vehicle manufacturing is R&D, testing, and certification. Maintaining the transversely mounted engines and going RWD would be fairly difficult, thus justifying the use of AWD. It's one of the reasons Acura went with "Super" handling AWD instead of a RWD platform that 99% of high end car buyers prefer.
And the NSX (design wise) is basically a FWD car driven backwards. Imagine a Civic driven backwards with an extended wheelbase and longer overhangs (I know, the NSX is a GREAT car and kinda brilliant at the same time).
I don't know enough to get too technical into it. Personally, I prefer traditionally mounted engines and RWD or AWD. I HATE transversely mounted engines (yeah, the tC is mounted transverse, but it's supposed to be a cheap car).
I agree for the most part, but disagree to some extent. The MOST expensive element of vehicle manufacturing is R&D, testing, and certification. Maintaining the transversely mounted engines and going RWD would be fairly difficult, thus justifying the use of AWD. It's one of the reasons Acura went with "Super" handling AWD instead of a RWD platform that 99% of high end car buyers prefer.
And the NSX (design wise) is basically a FWD car driven backwards. Imagine a Civic driven backwards with an extended wheelbase and longer overhangs (I know, the NSX is a GREAT car and kinda brilliant at the same time).
I don't know enough to get too technical into it. Personally, I prefer traditionally mounted engines and RWD or AWD. I HATE transversely mounted engines (yeah, the tC is mounted transverse, but it's supposed to be a cheap car).