Club Anti-Lexus?
11-30-06, 08:28 PM
#31
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I think some of you are talking in extremes and absolutes. Also, I was referring to ClubLexus in general, not in particular the Car Chat. There are enough Benz and BMW fans voicing their opinions in the IS or LS forums for example.
Obviously, there will always be fanboys, and criticism, and nobody is perfect, etc etc.
These things are pretty much common sense.
What I specifically was talking about is that ClubLexus generally is one of the most unbiased, civilized, and intelligent car forums/communities out there, and many of you seem to agree.
And understandably, this community is a Lexus community after all. It's common sense that on a BMW forum, *most* people would like BMW. It then makes sense that on a Lexus forum (ClubLexus), most people would like Lexus, and that there would be more praise than criticism for Lexus.
Often, the praise on these forums gets lost in the sea of criticism.
In other words, what I am saying is all the unwarranted criticism is uncharacteristic of ClubLexus, and like Sick said, is getting to be really old. It's tarnishing an otherwise awesome community.
Just so you know, I hardly give constant praise to Lexus. But I do respect Toyota and Lexus, and I like most of the cars that Toyota builds, which naturally makes sense as to why then I would be on these forums, as opposed to me posting on Acura, Infiniti, or BMW forums. I am honest in my opinions, and so I give honest judgements of all kinds of cars. When it comes to facts or specs, I try and judge cars objectively.
For example, BMWs tending to have a stiff ride. There is very little room for debate here. L-Finesse being "bland". That is more subjective, because from all the dozens of reviews on the new ES, IS, GS, and LS, opinions range from the cars having bland derivative styling, all the way to the cars having beautiful original styling. You don't exactly hear reviewers gushing over the "soft ride of a BMW".
And I guess this is all understandable, since Lexus is the market leader in the North American luxury segment and has been for years, makes sense that more and more fans from other brands will come to websites such as this one and voice their criticism, as Lexus becomes more competitive.
Obviously, there will always be fanboys, and criticism, and nobody is perfect, etc etc.
These things are pretty much common sense.
What I specifically was talking about is that ClubLexus generally is one of the most unbiased, civilized, and intelligent car forums/communities out there, and many of you seem to agree.
And understandably, this community is a Lexus community after all. It's common sense that on a BMW forum, *most* people would like BMW. It then makes sense that on a Lexus forum (ClubLexus), most people would like Lexus, and that there would be more praise than criticism for Lexus.
Often, the praise on these forums gets lost in the sea of criticism.
In other words, what I am saying is all the unwarranted criticism is uncharacteristic of ClubLexus, and like Sick said, is getting to be really old. It's tarnishing an otherwise awesome community.
Just so you know, I hardly give constant praise to Lexus. But I do respect Toyota and Lexus, and I like most of the cars that Toyota builds, which naturally makes sense as to why then I would be on these forums, as opposed to me posting on Acura, Infiniti, or BMW forums. I am honest in my opinions, and so I give honest judgements of all kinds of cars. When it comes to facts or specs, I try and judge cars objectively.
For example, BMWs tending to have a stiff ride. There is very little room for debate here. L-Finesse being "bland". That is more subjective, because from all the dozens of reviews on the new ES, IS, GS, and LS, opinions range from the cars having bland derivative styling, all the way to the cars having beautiful original styling. You don't exactly hear reviewers gushing over the "soft ride of a BMW".
And I guess this is all understandable, since Lexus is the market leader in the North American luxury segment and has been for years, makes sense that more and more fans from other brands will come to websites such as this one and voice their criticism, as Lexus becomes more competitive.
Last edited by TRDFantasy; 11-30-06 at 08:31 PM.
11-30-06, 09:18 PM
#32
It does feel like we're getting beat up on our own HOME.
It's a similar feeling to when you go to a football or basketball
game and there are more fans of the other team in the stands
cheering on the visting team...
It's a similar feeling to when you go to a football or basketball
game and there are more fans of the other team in the stands
cheering on the visting team...
12-01-06, 12:09 AM
#33
Lexus Fanatic
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So occasionally there's a negative rant by someone who clearly doesn't like Lexus. That's hardly a 'sea of criticism'. Perhaps you could provide links to thread that have such a sea.
Just so you know, I hardly give constant praise to Lexus.
But I do respect Toyota and Lexus, and I like most of the cars that Toyota builds, which naturally makes sense as to why then I would be on these forums, as opposed to me posting on Acura, Infiniti, or BMW forums.
I am honest in my opinions, and so I give honest judgements of all kinds of cars. When it comes to facts or specs, I try and judge cars objectively.
For example, BMWs tending to have a stiff ride. There is very little room for debate here.
For example, BMWs tending to have a stiff ride. There is very little room for debate here.
L-Finesse being "bland". That is more subjective, ...
And I guess this is all understandable, since Lexus is the market leader in the North American luxury segment and has been for years,
makes sense that more and more fans from other brands will come to websites such as this one and voice their criticism, as Lexus becomes more competitive.
Put simply - I think thou doth protest too much!
12-01-06, 03:51 AM
#34
Lexus Fanatic
I
Again, not everything and not every comment is objective. You think "BMW tending to have a stiff ride" is an objective statement. I don't at all. That may be true compared to Lexus, but it isn't necessarily true compared to Mercedes, Audi, or even (shock) CADILLAC which in recent years has significantly stiffened the rides on all their models in a weak attempt to appeal to a younger audience. I remember when I drove my father-in-law's FWD Deville's in the 90's - they were STIFF.
Again, not everything and not every comment is objective. You think "BMW tending to have a stiff ride" is an objective statement. I don't at all. That may be true compared to Lexus, but it isn't necessarily true compared to Mercedes, Audi, or even (shock) CADILLAC which in recent years has significantly stiffened the rides on all their models in a weak attempt to appeal to a younger audience. I remember when I drove my father-in-law's FWD Deville's in the 90's - they were STIFF.
12-01-06, 07:00 AM
#35
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12-01-06, 10:00 AM
#36
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Most of the arguements here are solely a social problem.
It's a bit of a smack in the face to car people that a company like Toyota can make an excellent business out of making inspired designs and still manage the engineering feats they have. Alot of Toyotas success is dependant on marketing the cars to the most obvious of all, and that is the average person. Unfortunately alot of "average" people know nothing about cars. To an enthusiast, seeing many of the people on here who clearly are not car enthusiasts but solely Lexus enthusiasts claim to enjoy the same hobby as them it is insulting. Toyota did not invent the car and the Lexus nutswingers need to stop acting as if Toyota is the mother of their children. In the same respect, competitors haven't exactly lived up to their past reputations, and people shouldn't be so quick to compare other cars to fault Lexus. The most prominent problem is the regurgitation of the same useless "facts" and half truths people post to support their arguement to one side or the other, and at the end of the day it all amounts to propaganda. There is not a large majority of people on Clublexus who can offer up technical support in favor of their arguements, and instead hearsay and press releases are all they contribute. It would be downright dangerous if people took the advice of half the people on these forums, as they would turn their cars into cars that are not road worthy and unsafe to themselves and others.
The large majority of polarized comments supportive OR not of Lexus are made by uneducated posters with no viable evidence and a simple vendetta.
The news page on Clublexus is guilty of this too, with writeups on races using a bit more extreme language than necessary to make it seem as if there was no competition at the race at all and that Lexus had won singlehandedly.
From an American perspective enthusiasts may feel it is a bit unfair an initial "copycat" brand can become so successful. Meanwhile domestic brands continue to languish in poor performance through shallow market penetration, customer satisfaction and numerous financial and political issues.
A European poster would be even more polarized to Lexus, especially in countries like the UK or Germany where Lexus has nothing resembling a solid foundation. To these people, anti Lexus sentiment often comes from the fact that local cars are steeped in tradition and are the number one source of not only Lexus' ideas but also their primary rivals.
The other groups left out have access to massive foreign used networks that are primarily sourced by Toyota and Nissan. It is my guess these people will obviously side with a pro-Lexus sentiment.
The culture shock is pretty intense here. I am not saying there are not "true" car guys here. I am simply pointing out that not everyone here was interested in cars until they got their Lexus and it lends a very negative feeling to the forums from both sides.
Ignorant banter like https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...=1#post2268511
It's a bit of a smack in the face to car people that a company like Toyota can make an excellent business out of making inspired designs and still manage the engineering feats they have. Alot of Toyotas success is dependant on marketing the cars to the most obvious of all, and that is the average person. Unfortunately alot of "average" people know nothing about cars. To an enthusiast, seeing many of the people on here who clearly are not car enthusiasts but solely Lexus enthusiasts claim to enjoy the same hobby as them it is insulting. Toyota did not invent the car and the Lexus nutswingers need to stop acting as if Toyota is the mother of their children. In the same respect, competitors haven't exactly lived up to their past reputations, and people shouldn't be so quick to compare other cars to fault Lexus. The most prominent problem is the regurgitation of the same useless "facts" and half truths people post to support their arguement to one side or the other, and at the end of the day it all amounts to propaganda. There is not a large majority of people on Clublexus who can offer up technical support in favor of their arguements, and instead hearsay and press releases are all they contribute. It would be downright dangerous if people took the advice of half the people on these forums, as they would turn their cars into cars that are not road worthy and unsafe to themselves and others.
The large majority of polarized comments supportive OR not of Lexus are made by uneducated posters with no viable evidence and a simple vendetta.
The news page on Clublexus is guilty of this too, with writeups on races using a bit more extreme language than necessary to make it seem as if there was no competition at the race at all and that Lexus had won singlehandedly.
From an American perspective enthusiasts may feel it is a bit unfair an initial "copycat" brand can become so successful. Meanwhile domestic brands continue to languish in poor performance through shallow market penetration, customer satisfaction and numerous financial and political issues.
A European poster would be even more polarized to Lexus, especially in countries like the UK or Germany where Lexus has nothing resembling a solid foundation. To these people, anti Lexus sentiment often comes from the fact that local cars are steeped in tradition and are the number one source of not only Lexus' ideas but also their primary rivals.
The other groups left out have access to massive foreign used networks that are primarily sourced by Toyota and Nissan. It is my guess these people will obviously side with a pro-Lexus sentiment.
The culture shock is pretty intense here. I am not saying there are not "true" car guys here. I am simply pointing out that not everyone here was interested in cars until they got their Lexus and it lends a very negative feeling to the forums from both sides.
Ignorant banter like https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...=1#post2268511
Last edited by 2jzgte; 12-01-06 at 10:13 AM.
12-01-06, 11:34 AM
#37
Lexus Fanatic
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LOL!
But if I understand the complaint directly, it's that too great a proportion of the content is anti-Lexus which in my observations at least I disagree with.
Isn't a post that complains about the broad content on CL in itself an anti-ClubLexus action, so asketh the wisest of the wise soothsayers. 
12-01-06, 11:36 AM
#38
Lexus Champion
Let me say one thing additional that I think may help clarify at least my perspective coming here or any other board oriented toward a particular car make of choice.
There isn't a single car board that I'm on that I spend more time praising than I do criticizing .
Why?
Because these boards are typically filled to the brim with people who see no wrong in the local brand of choice.
So what good is it going to do for me to play the role of the broken record and simply repeat what everyone else has already said? Simply because I don't rant on and on about how great something is about a Lexus model doesn't mean I don't think it is great. I just find it more valuable to say something that hasn't already been said - and guess what usually hasn't been said (if anything)? Usually the negative stuff - in other words the "other side of the story".
I don't see this or any other car board as a fan club or a support group because all fan clubs and support groups tend to do is find solace in patting each other on the back and repeating the same one-sided perspectives to each other over and over to make each other feel good. That's a waste of time, IMO.
I'm here to LEARN from others and to help others learn as well. I don't MIND hear a pro-lexus opinion even if it is from a fanboy because they may very well tell me something I was completely unaware of and help open my eyes to something I previously had little to no appreciation for. But at the same time it'd be a waste of response if I just said "YEAH AGREE LEXUS IS SOOOO AWESOME!!!1!!11". Instead, I believe I'm being a more effective contributor the progression and intelligence of a discussion if I can say something somebody hasn't already mentioned.
So there you go.
On this board, you may find me to be more pro-domestic and pro-euro car than you'd care for.
But go look at how some people view me over on some of the domestic boards, for example - I'm known as the resident japanese car advocate.
Strange how that works, right?
There isn't a single car board that I'm on that I spend more time praising than I do criticizing .
Why?
Because these boards are typically filled to the brim with people who see no wrong in the local brand of choice.
So what good is it going to do for me to play the role of the broken record and simply repeat what everyone else has already said? Simply because I don't rant on and on about how great something is about a Lexus model doesn't mean I don't think it is great. I just find it more valuable to say something that hasn't already been said - and guess what usually hasn't been said (if anything)? Usually the negative stuff - in other words the "other side of the story".
I don't see this or any other car board as a fan club or a support group because all fan clubs and support groups tend to do is find solace in patting each other on the back and repeating the same one-sided perspectives to each other over and over to make each other feel good. That's a waste of time, IMO.
I'm here to LEARN from others and to help others learn as well. I don't MIND hear a pro-lexus opinion even if it is from a fanboy because they may very well tell me something I was completely unaware of and help open my eyes to something I previously had little to no appreciation for. But at the same time it'd be a waste of response if I just said "YEAH AGREE LEXUS IS SOOOO AWESOME!!!1!!11". Instead, I believe I'm being a more effective contributor the progression and intelligence of a discussion if I can say something somebody hasn't already mentioned.
So there you go.
On this board, you may find me to be more pro-domestic and pro-euro car than you'd care for.
But go look at how some people view me over on some of the domestic boards, for example - I'm known as the resident japanese car advocate.
Strange how that works, right?
12-01-06, 03:55 PM
#40
Lexus Champion
I think you understood it and if you are wrong, then we won't see any posts on here or participants on them that taunt other auto manufaturers on their sales compared to Lexus or Toyota, as why, uh, uh, that would be opposite to the original point and it would be anti-anti-CL.
Keep an eye out for them and if you see any, you'll know for certain you are right.
But as posted earlier...(you smote that argument)
12-05-06, 03:39 PM
#41
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I think it's a pretty balanced debate. Many of us own vehicles of different makes, other than Lexus and have formed our own opinions.
One of my peeves is that members go out of their way to differenciate Lexus from Toyota when people say Lexus = Toyota. Yet when Toyota has strong sales or a car like the Camry gets an award, they latch on to the mothership.
Then.. when a Toyota has a recall or the reported issues with the Camry, they again attempt to draw a line between the brands or dismiss it to being "Built in America".
You can't have it both ways...
Another peeve is that when visiting BMW forums (several different) there is minimal discussion of Lexus.. far less than some here would lead you to believe. Yet, here on ClubLexus, many members go out of their way to bash the BMW and MB brands, the primary competition.
**I can only speak of BMW since that is the only other forum type that I visit.
Still, at the end of the day.. I think it's a pretty peaceful crowd.
One of my peeves is that members go out of their way to differenciate Lexus from Toyota when people say Lexus = Toyota. Yet when Toyota has strong sales or a car like the Camry gets an award, they latch on to the mothership.
Then.. when a Toyota has a recall or the reported issues with the Camry, they again attempt to draw a line between the brands or dismiss it to being "Built in America".
You can't have it both ways...
Another peeve is that when visiting BMW forums (several different) there is minimal discussion of Lexus.. far less than some here would lead you to believe. Yet, here on ClubLexus, many members go out of their way to bash the BMW and MB brands, the primary competition.
**I can only speak of BMW since that is the only other forum type that I visit.
Still, at the end of the day.. I think it's a pretty peaceful crowd.
BMW build awesome automobiles. Granted the reliability is a notch behind Lexus, not too far behind though, but the drive is amazing. A little harsh, but wow.
I have always love Lexus automobiles, reliable, predictable, and on little on the boring and safe side. That is why there will always be a bimmer in my garage as well. For thos days when I want to have fun.
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