TRDFantasy

First off, I don't mean to sound harsh, and I certainly do not wish for this to become a flamewar, so mods you can certainly freeze this if it does happen to be the case, but it would be nice if this remained a mature civilized discussion .

Some of the Lexus critics on this site seem to have a big need to prove something to the rest of us here on ClubLexus. This is just my opinion, and others can post about it if they wish, but I don't exactly expect these forums to be dominated with BMW or Mercedes-centered discussions, or constant criticism (most of which is unwarranted) of Lexus. For example, "Lexus doesn't have a V12", "Lexus doesn't have a lavish, snobby reputation", "Lexus doesn't have a M Sport Super AMG Ultra Deluxe with a V16, 6 piston brakes on all 4 corners and a 500K price tag". Maybe the last one is pushing it, but you get the idea .

Now I can definitely understand reasonable criticism, and constructive criticism, but often it gets to a point where it becomes very unreasonable here, and I don't think I need to point out those instances, since many of you have seen enough posts with them.

I understand that some of you like all sorts of cars, just as I do. I am an automotive enthusiast, but I am not narrow minded or ignorant, so I am an enthusiast about all kinds of cars, whether they be a Camry or a Carrera. I also understand all the different market segments and demographics out there, and I am not brainwashed or fooled by all the enthusiast auto mags out there that *all* cars have to be sports performance cars with stiff handling.

Some people here apparently want Lexus to be just like BMW, or be just like Mercedes. Guess what, Lexus is going to be themselves. They are going in their own direction, and forging their own brand identity and heritage. If you really enjoy BMWs and Benzes so much, why be on this site?

flipside909

CL is a very diverse community from Lexus fanatics to Lexus foes. I've seen it evolve in the 5+ years i've contributed here. I actually think it's good to have critics in our community. I like to read through some of the propoganda from time to time. Everyone has their tastes as far as how they perceive the brand. There will always be a critic for any kind of topic, mild or harsh. Sure some of the bashing gets old, but we do have a comprehensive moderating team to keep things in check when necessary.

TRDFantasy

Which is exactly why I like CL so much. I've known it to be mostly, a mature, civilized community with lots of intelligent people, and lots of good discussion.

It just seems lately criticism is ever-rising, even with the new generation of Lexus vehicles being leaps better than older ones. And this is coming not just from new members here, but older ones as well.

I just hope this community doesn't degenerate into something else, resembling other car communities out there with bad reputations.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Well, what do you want this forum to be? Lexus was created by Toyota to complete mainly with BMW and MB. What do you want us to discuss? You want us to praise Lexus by coparing it to Daeboos or Hiundais?

Och

iTrader: (3)

I beg to differ. The new generation Lexii are not built anywhere near as well as previous gens. I also totally dislike this new L-finesse uniform look that Lexus introduced for new models. I loved the distinctive looks of previous models, and with new models I can barely tell them apart.

mmarshall

You won't find me in either in " pro-Lexus " or " anti-Lexus " camps, per se, although I respect the fact that even with our wildly successful CAR CHAT forum, this is primarily a group of Lexus owners and enthusiasts. I was a Lexus owner myself for some 5 years, with one of the comparatively few Solar Yellow IS300's built. Sold it only because I wanted better foul-weather traction and a more-plush interior.

Still, as my logo indicates, I talk CARS, not just Lexuses.......and granted, when I get going about some cars it is hard to shut me up.....I can be like a windbag. But I talk about cars, give advice, and judge them strictly as I see them and review them, a skill acquired over many years of doing so....going all the way back to high school over 35 years ago. I'm not out to push or un-push or to support or malign any single brand, though it is no secret that I generally have a quite high opinion of Subarus and don't have a very high opinion of Chris Bangle-designed BMW's.

Having said that, I find two of the latest Lexus models, the IS and ES, to be relative disappointments........especially the ES, for reasons which I have already spelled out in detail in numerous posts.....I won't rehash them again here. And I found another new Lexus product, the GS, particularly the GS AWD, to be a superb machine in almost every way.....one of the 10 best cars I have ever driven.

mmarshall

Well, Daewoo builds some products that are respectable vehicles and others that border on junk. The products that they build for American-market Suzuki are pretty good though not top-notch, but the Aveo, which it builds for Chevy, is transportation at its very base.

Don't laugh about Hyundais though. Hyundai's general level of quality and fit-and-finish, today, is as good as anything in the American market, though some of their engineering still lags that of Japanese-designed vehicles slightly. Still, they have become an astounding value.....I just got done helping a fellow co-worker buy a new Sonata a few days ago, and this car is just unbelievable for the money.

ic144

It's something called "free speech."

Our president would call it "a healthy example of democracy."

marshmallo

For the most part I like this forum and I get lots of good information,
but you're right. Some of the excessive anti-Lexus criticism gets old...
I really don't have anything personal against any other brand and I
would most certainly not go to other forums to pour Hatorade on
them.

flipside909

When one succeeds and surpasses, there will always be haters and critics to follow. CL is definitely in an exponential stage of growth. But with that healthy growth, the ratios of critics will grow as well. Unfortunately, people tend to dwell on negatives than the positives. Everyone is always entitled to their own opinions.

O. L. T.

iTrader: (17)

Lexus sucks.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Conversely, some of the Lexus fans on this site have a big need to prove to the rest that Lexus vehicles are always better than everything else.

As you know Car Chat has news and reviews of all brands, in particular direct competitors to Lexus which of course include BMW and Mercedes. So when news or reviews of a new or revised BMW or Mercedes is posted, it's going to have a whole thread on it because lots of users on here are interested. The other thing to consider is that the Lexus news gets diluted across all the other forums so it's not surprising that Car Chat doesn't have that much Lexus news on it, except in comparison to other brands.

Well most enthusiasts are most excited by sports car performance, stiff handling, big rims, etc. so it's no surprise to me that a new Nissan GT-R or Porsche is going to attract a lot more attention than a new Yaris.

Maybe some, but I think many (including myself) strongly believe Lexus can offer vehicles more competitive with BMW and Mercedes without harming their current image at all. The S-Class's active suspension for example may result in C&D's view of 'sporty' handling, but flat cornering even at slow speeds is far more luxurious and comfortable than being thrown around with body roll like in a row boat. Lexus is making progress but I think a lot of the criticism is really frustration because of a strong belief that Lexus should be easily able to outdo those other brands but still in their own way.

Yes but Lexus is not an island. They are no doubt constantly comparing and contrasting what they do with other brands, and continue to work to offer a unique combination of 'values' and styles to differentiate themselves from other brands. Lexus value combination today can probably be summarized by very good refinement, reliability, and customer service.

Because it's not a zero sum game. You can really enjoy MANY brands including Lexus. Now if someone HATES Lexus for some reasons and like to express that a lot, then I would agree they probably won't have a lot of fun here and will probably end up banned.

Many of us are former Lexus owners and went to another brand for one reason or another and now perhaps we see Lexus in a different light.

Personally I continue to think Lexus makes outstanding vehicles. I've been disappointed and critical of the successor (3GS) to the car I had (2GS) but I'm certainly not alone. I do still see areas where it's better than the earlier generation, but it certainly made nothing of the splash the prior one did. I think the new LS is the best one yet, the new IS is WAY better than the old one, the ES the best one yet, and the SUVs are great in different ways but that doesn't mean I love everything about every one of them.

Anyway, I think the variety of passionate debate, discussion and comments on here are GREAT! Some relentlessly negative people can be tiresome, but so can people who never have a bad thing to say about a brand.

mmarshall

The Chris Bangle-designed BMW's are perhaps the best examples of this..... cars that draw intense discussion and strong opinions on both sides. I, for instance, am no fan of them, but I give them credit where it is due....as in the steering and chassis dynamics.

T0ked

iTrader: (2)

A lot of the criticism that I've come across on the threads I read is the "dissapointment" people feel towards Lexus. They wanted the LS to come and conquer all, both in the luxury and performance boats. Unfortunately, that is not true, We also wish Lexus would hurry up and release the IS500 or throw in a V10 or put out a 500hp LS. Not only do we want lexus to destroy MB and BMW, but to also own the benchmark for everything! Now I agree that lexus is forging its own trail now while trying to address some of the competition. Us Lexus fans though, want more. Lexus is very successful and will continue to do what they think is best and we will continue to rant and banter about how Lexus could "do better". I admit to this myself. I love the marque and my car and i would have it no other way. I've done my fair share of complaining, especially when the new SC came out. Doesn't mean I am "anti-Lexus".

ES350Bob

I think you do need to point out something posted you do not agree with in contrast to stating you do not think you need to point out instances.

In fact, you have opportunity to do just that by posting a response to something you feel is unwarranted.

Everybody has that opportunity on here which is why it is so successful.

In line with your complaint, I have seen example, after example of the polar opposite, people so glossed over by a brand, in denial, that they attack others who had the "nerve" to post about issues with a vehicle.