marshmallo

That's what I am referring to. I think it will be available in
the regular V8 (non-LS600h V8). Of course, I'll believe it
when I see it. To be honest, I am having second thoughts
about buying AWD on this car. I believe it will be a MASSIVE
gas guzzler. In an ideal world I'd keep my GS300AWD and
get the LS460RWD.

Hmmm.... Have to check it out, but the way I am I don't even bother
much with details and just drive off.

Was the car you reviewed equipped with radar cruise???? That sounds
like a very useful feature that I would pay extra for.

mmarshall

No matter what the price of the competition is and what it includes, a $73,000 list price is not cheap. How many people do you know that are walking around with that kind of money in their wallet? Not many, I'll guess.

In fact, I myself used your arguement, numerous times, in my defense of the VW Phaeton in the U.S. market. I pointed out that $90,000 for the W12 version was not really expensive at all when you consider the competition..... Mercedes and BMW V12's that could run well over $100,000...even as high as $ 150,000. I tried to point the Phaeton out as a relative bargain......which, indeed, it was. Yet the public apparantly didn't agree.....they kept buying the V12 BMW's and Mercedes in droves and avoided the Phaeton like the plague, finally forcing VW to pull it from the American market.

I guess everyone has a different definition of expensive.......mine is around $40,000. Anthing with a sticker over that, IMO, is what I consider expensive.
I myself would not spend over $40,000 for a new car, regardless of content....I probably couldn't afford it.

This is also one of the big reasons why cars in the LS460's class are often leased rather than purchased outright....it costs a lot less to lease one for 2-4 years than to buy one because in effect, instead of paying the full $70,000, you are just renting the car for a few years and paying the difference between the car's value brand-new and its projected residual value at the end of the lease period.

Gojirra99

They didn't buy V12 BMW's & MB's in droves mmarshall, their V12's only make up a few % of their total model sales, just that it's still probably higher than total Phaeton sales

mmarshall

Yes, I know. I did not mean " in droves " literally, only in comparison to the almost nonexistant Phaeton sales. The Phaeton, though it did not deserve to be, was in fact an enormous flop in the U.S. market.

Threxx

Interesting review, though I will make a couple of comments.

You mention the 6.0L V8 in the hybrid. I have always heard is was a 5.0 w/ hybrid electric, and named the LS600h because, much like the GS450h, that's where they estimated the 'equivalent displacement in terms of power output'... kinda like how AMD likes to rate their processors as, say, "3800+" even though the actual clock speed is quite a bit lower (and even though Intel is not really making the P4 anymore, which those ratings are still based on)

You mentioned there probably not being a CVT that can handle the power input from the 4.6L motor. I have heard similar things about other models and CVT just in general in general not having the ability to handle large amounts of power reliably. Plus lots of reports of the 'feel' of CVTs just not being that of a quality transmission. Probably because a CVT in some ways reminds people a lot of a slipping standard automatic transmission. And then there's the reliability issue. While CVTs are cheap and somewhat easy to work on and replace (compared to an automatic, anyway)... they don't seem to last that long.
Now with THAT said, I think the GS450h is using a CVT, right? There's quite a bit of power involved there, plus Lexus' reliability reputation at stake. Also, the LS600h will be using a CVT w/ AWD, correct? So if they can use a CVT for the LS600h, which has even more power than the LS460... why not on the LS460? I did once speak with an engineer who said something about the design of hybrid cars having some inherent property to allow for CVT/IVT transmissions of a different sort of design or requirement than you'd typically see with just a gasoline motor. I didn't quite retain or understand what he meant, though, but I just remember something about a hybrid design makes using a CVT cheaper, simpler, and more of a no-brainer than it does on a non-hybrid car.

Lastly... you were talking about the 55 series tires on the ES350 vs the 50 series tires on the LS460. That's kind of hard to compare, though, without considering the tire's entire width and such. 50 series tires on a narrow tire, for example can be much lower profile in actual sidewall height, than 55 series tires on a wide tire, which would allow for taller sidewall height. You may already be aware of that but in your review you kind of made it sound like the two numbers were all you needed to directly compare the sidewall height and accompanying cushioning provided. Beyond that I personally have found a reduction of 5 or so in profile with otherwise equal tires doesn't really change a whole lot, relative to the rest of the suspension and chassis which I'm sure is dramatically different between the ES and LS that it seemed you were trying to compare on tire profile alone.

I've always wanted to read a review of an LS460l with AVS and without AVS though... maybe you could do a quick comparo there... I hope Lexus will release the SWB with AVS soon enough as I don't care for the extra length and weight, but would probably like a semi-active suspension system.

Threxx

There's a good reason why that is - it's the same reason Toyota decided to create the Lexus brand in the US in the first place. US buyers insist that a premium car have a premium brand behind it.

Put the LS460 on the market with a Toyota badge and then try to equip all the Toyota dealers with a special lounge and wine bar for owners of the premium model only... yeah that wouldn't fly at all.

mmarshall

Well, vehicles marketed in the U.S. as Lexus and Infiniti products, for years, did very well in Japan under the Toyota and Nissan nameplates.

Examples:

Japan Toyota Aristo = U.S. Lexus GS
Japan Nissan Cima = U.S. Infiniti Q45
Japan Toyota Altezza 3.0 = U.S Lexus IS300

There are numerous others as well.

In fact, in Japan the Cima DID sell, where here the Q45 DIDN'T.


Nameplates don't mean......or at least SHOULD not mean.....as much as what you are actually getting underneath the sheet metal. Unfortunately, and undeservedly, with the Phaeton, it did.

Threxx

Yes, I don't know if you were stating that for the benefit of others or were telling me that, but yes, I'm very well aware of the fact that those and countless other models are badged differently depending on the country in question.

That was exactly my point, though. The REASON Toyota launched the Lexus nameplate in the US in 1990 is that it realized US consumers responded positively to segregation of wealth and quality via branding. That's the same reason why I think VW should have known better than to launch what amounted to a tricked out Audi A8 with a VW badge and slightly lower price tag and expect their VW dealers to be able to create a premium branded experience under a brand that otherwise sold non-premium cars.

Whether it SHOULD make a difference or not I guess is a question of your personal mindset toward marketing and human nature... but I guess here in the US, it does.

I mean, if you put an extremely high quality well made sweater with a premium brand name at a trendy store in the middle of a high end shopping boutique and put a $350 price tag on it... that makes sense. It won't sell in huge volumes, but it will still probably sell justifiably well along with everything else of a similar nature in that store.
Now go take that EXACT same sweater in a Wal-mart, but put a low-end name on it.. like a name people are used to seeing in a walmart, and drop the price from $350 down to $250 and 99.999% of the people in there are going to fall on the floor laughing and probably notifying walmart's customer service counter that there must be a price mistake with an extra zero on that sweater. Why? Because it's walmart. It's a low-end name on the sweater. The only thing that hasn't changed is the sweater itself.
In the US if you want to sell a premium branded item in a retail store, you typically need to have a premium name, premium store, and premium service experience to go along with it.

Threxx

Just to explain my other comment a bit better, when you said this:

...it seemed like you were simply saying that a 50-series will ride stiffer than a 55-series due to some proportional decrease in sidewall height:

I was just saying you can't always make that assumption because that number is an aspect ratio... it's the percentage of the section width (the first number) that the sidewall height is composed of.

215/55/17 = 215mm*55%= 118.25mm side wall height

235/50/18 = 235mm*50%= 117.5mm side wall height

So yes, the LS460's sidewall is still a tad bit shorter, but instead of the almos 12 millimeters (almost half an inch) difference 5% would make between two otherwise identical 235mm section width tires, it only shows a 3/4 of a millimeter (3 hundredths of an inch) difference in this scenario.

That is a difference in sidewall height I doubt anyone would ever notice and also why you can't just compare aspect ratios from two unequal width tires to know what the actual sidewall height is.

And that's ignoring all the other differences too... like oh, them being completely/drastically different platforms, chassis, suspension, etc.

mmarshall

Wasn't directed at you personally. I just used the exmples to make a point.




If people are dumb enough not to buy an expensive, well-made product ( like Eddie Bauer or L.L. Bean ) at a cheaper price ( like Target or Walmart ) when they have the opportunity, that that is on them, not the store....they need a crash course in Budget Management 101.

Toyota recognized this when it introduced the Avalon to the American market in 1994. The car was first designed to be a Lexus, but Toyota felt that it was better suited as the new Toyota flagship instead.......one step above the Camry, replacing the old Cressida. So the car was marketed as a Toyota instead, and has been a success even though it has not sold in the Camry's huge numbers.

Anyhow, let's get back on topic...the new LS460. We can open up another thread if you want to discuss how to market auto nameplates.

rai

I agree with you that $60+K is not cheap. but if it's $10-20K cheaper than similar BMW/Audi/MB than I would not call the price a minus (in context to the rest of the cars in this class). There are dozens of cars that start over $50K, my point is that based on its class the LS is not expensive. I believe the top S-class costs $180K so almost 3x the cost of a base LS.

As far as the Phaeton, I never drove one, but saw a couple at the dealer, I think a big point is that Audi already had the A8 so the Phaeton was trying to sell as a cheap luxury car and people don't want cheap luxury cars, thats the oppisite of what they want to show off. What I mean is many people would mistake it for a Passat.

I agree that with so many nice cars below $50K it's difficult to justify spending $70K+ on a car, but (IMO) it's a lot to do with status (some people want to show off a bit, witness people who spend $4K on 'rims' for show) also as you said many people lease cars and constantly are under a car payment. I don't agree with this, but that the way many people are in this country. Most worry more about their status than they do about saving for retirement.

PS I have not read the whole review yet, but am looking forward to it.

mmarshall

You're correct, rai. One does not have to spend 50K...or even 30K.....to get a great car. You yourself found that out just a few weeks ago.

LexFather

A base LS is cheaper, looking at how Lexus is selling them with the option packages, the LS is now just as expensive as the Germans in most cases, until the $100,000 mark.

mmarshall

Good point, SICK. Option packages for the LS are not cheap....some of them run as high as 10-11K. However, these expensive LS options, as I stated in my review, buy some components of astoundingly high quality. Take the Mark Levinson stereo package, for instance. That is a lot of money to pay for a stereo, but the sound from this system is remarkable.....you have to actually hear it to believe it. ( I could have kicked myself for not bringing along some of my best KISS, AC/DC, or Judas Priest CD's to try out ). This great stereo was just one of MANY high-quality features on this car to cause me to give it such a high rating. My All-Time-Best awards, which this car received one of, are not given out casually or carelessly.

LexFather

Damn, now I need to go the dealer and try out that ML system you keep talking about!