Coming Soon: Carbon-Ceramic Brakes on Your Car?
12-29-06, 02:57 PM
#16
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
You guys need to read the tech section at Stoptech. Rotors don't warp. They get uneven pad deposits, or they hot spot and form cementite, but they don't warp. Ask Carroll Smith. It's also impossible to get brakes hot on the street. Even autobahn driving doesn't generate heat the way any road course does. The only street driving that really taxes brakes is heavy equipment. Cars have way too much swept area per ton to worry about brake fade on the street.
And anybody using a lathe to resurface brakes is soooo 20th century. You want rotors to be resurfaced with a centerless grinder, not a lathe. Not only does it take less material, but it removes the old pad compound beautifully, and that's what you really need anyway.
At over $400 per disc, they're not even close to cast iron. Anybody price discs lately? Retail - under $150 each for the IS350's 335mm rotors, and under $80 each for the TT Supra's 315mm rotors. Both have directional vanes and all the other "high tech" features, they just don't have aluminum hats. Sure the carbon ceramic setup is light, but it's not going to make it worthwhile to anyone in the affordable car price range. They need to get the retail price under $200 a corner to make it "affordable."
And anybody using a lathe to resurface brakes is soooo 20th century. You want rotors to be resurfaced with a centerless grinder, not a lathe. Not only does it take less material, but it removes the old pad compound beautifully, and that's what you really need anyway.
At over $400 per disc, they're not even close to cast iron. Anybody price discs lately? Retail - under $150 each for the IS350's 335mm rotors, and under $80 each for the TT Supra's 315mm rotors. Both have directional vanes and all the other "high tech" features, they just don't have aluminum hats. Sure the carbon ceramic setup is light, but it's not going to make it worthwhile to anyone in the affordable car price range. They need to get the retail price under $200 a corner to make it "affordable."
12-29-06, 05:10 PM
#17
Guest
Posts: n/a
You guys need to read the tech section at Stoptech. Rotors don't warp. They get uneven pad deposits, or they hot spot and form cementite, but they don't warp. Ask Carroll Smith. It's also impossible to get brakes hot on the street. Even autobahn driving doesn't generate heat the way any road course does. The only street driving that really taxes brakes is heavy equipment. Cars have way too much swept area per ton to worry about brake fade on the street.
And anybody using a lathe to resurface brakes is soooo 20th century. You want rotors to be resurfaced with a centerless grinder, not a lathe. Not only does it take less material, but it removes the old pad compound beautifully, and that's what you really need anyway.
At over $400 per disc, they're not even close to cast iron. Anybody price discs lately? Retail - under $150 each for the IS350's 335mm rotors, and under $80 each for the TT Supra's 315mm rotors. Both have directional vanes and all the other "high tech" features, they just don't have aluminum hats. Sure the carbon ceramic setup is light, but it's not going to make it worthwhile to anyone in the affordable car price range. They need to get the retail price under $200 a corner to make it "affordable."
And anybody using a lathe to resurface brakes is soooo 20th century. You want rotors to be resurfaced with a centerless grinder, not a lathe. Not only does it take less material, but it removes the old pad compound beautifully, and that's what you really need anyway.
At over $400 per disc, they're not even close to cast iron. Anybody price discs lately? Retail - under $150 each for the IS350's 335mm rotors, and under $80 each for the TT Supra's 315mm rotors. Both have directional vanes and all the other "high tech" features, they just don't have aluminum hats. Sure the carbon ceramic setup is light, but it's not going to make it worthwhile to anyone in the affordable car price range. They need to get the retail price under $200 a corner to make it "affordable."
$400 is affordable each. Hell u seen BBK prices?
12-29-06, 06:59 PM
#18
Lexus Fanatic
Or, better yet, disengage the rear hand brake only part way instead of all the way, leave it up a couple of notches, go driving for a while, and watch what happens. So rotors don't warp? Try doing what I just said ( and some people, sometimes, actually DO this by mistake ) and those rotors will come out looking like eggs....and the rear wheel bearings will be burned up as well from the cooked grease inside. In fact, in some cases, the brake fluid actually boils away as well.
Last edited by mmarshall; 12-29-06 at 07:02 PM.
12-29-06, 09:34 PM
#19
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
That's the color of a hot brake. Go to any circuit racetrack and see this from a distance as soon as the sunlight fades. Or watch a NASCAR race with brake cameras like Martinsville or Watkins Glen. Lots of very glowing metal. You just can't use brakes that hard on the street.
I don't really need to support my statement about discs not warping. Read the tech article by Carroll Smith at Stoptech. He's forgot more about brakes than the sum of us ever knew.
The funny thing about BBKs - they're fundamentally overpriced because they are not going to sell many compared to OEM. My friend bought a complete set of Brembo rotors for his mom's '92 Prelude two days ago. $75 each. Yes, Brembo, said so right on the box. You're not paying for the parts in a BBK, you're paying for the work behind it. Besides, I would never buy a BBK for a street car, it's a waste of money I could spend on something that will actually improve performance like better tires or better suspension.
Last edited by lobuxracer; 12-29-06 at 09:41 PM.
12-29-06, 09:40 PM
#20
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
Or, better yet, disengage the rear hand brake only part way instead of all the way, leave it up a couple of notches, go driving for a while, and watch what happens. So rotors don't warp? Try doing what I just said ( and some people, sometimes, actually DO this by mistake ) and those rotors will come out looking like eggs....and the rear wheel bearings will be burned up as well from the cooked grease inside. In fact, in some cases, the brake fluid actually boils away as well.
However, there are a frightening number of people on the road today who brake with the left foot and accelerate with the right foot who literally drag the brakes all the time. They don't warp rotors. They wear out pads really fast, but they don't warp rotors.
12-29-06, 10:26 PM
#21
Guest
Posts: n/a
Sure they'll burn your hand. Your hand burns at 160 degrees and that's not very hot at all. Hot brakes are well over 500F. Brakes glow orange when they are hot. They throw off burning bits of brake pad that bind to the finish on the wheel (ask anyone who has used Hawk Blues at the track.) They never glow during street use and they only throw off dust that you can easily wipe off.
That's the color of a hot brake. Go to any circuit racetrack and see this from a distance as soon as the sunlight fades. Or watch a NASCAR race with brake cameras like Martinsville or Watkins Glen. Lots of very glowing metal. You just can't use brakes that hard on the street.
I don't really need to support my statement about discs not warping. Read the tech article by Carroll Smith at Stoptech. He's forgot more about brakes than the sum of us ever knew.
The funny thing about BBKs - they're fundamentally overpriced because they are not going to sell many compared to OEM. My friend bought a complete set of Brembo rotors for his mom's '92 Prelude two days ago. $75 each. Yes, Brembo, said so right on the box. You're not paying for the parts in a BBK, you're paying for the work behind it. Besides, I would never buy a BBK for a street car, it's a waste of money I could spend on something that will actually improve performance like better tires or better suspension.
That's the color of a hot brake. Go to any circuit racetrack and see this from a distance as soon as the sunlight fades. Or watch a NASCAR race with brake cameras like Martinsville or Watkins Glen. Lots of very glowing metal. You just can't use brakes that hard on the street.
I don't really need to support my statement about discs not warping. Read the tech article by Carroll Smith at Stoptech. He's forgot more about brakes than the sum of us ever knew.
The funny thing about BBKs - they're fundamentally overpriced because they are not going to sell many compared to OEM. My friend bought a complete set of Brembo rotors for his mom's '92 Prelude two days ago. $75 each. Yes, Brembo, said so right on the box. You're not paying for the parts in a BBK, you're paying for the work behind it. Besides, I would never buy a BBK for a street car, it's a waste of money I could spend on something that will actually improve performance like better tires or better suspension.
I am not going to compare F-1 racing cars, to even cars we track.
12-29-06, 10:41 PM
#22
Lexus Champion
OEM rotors will warp but it takes some pretty extreme combination of heat-prone brakes, hard driving, and some sort of shock treatment like driving through a giant puddle of cool water, or immediately hosing your rotors down when you get home.
But yeah, otherwise it's uneven distribution of material from the pad and such, which is why I almost always leave my brakes disengaged at a stop when I can, either in a manual or auto, and just keep an eye on my rear view to make sure I'm not gonna get rear ended.
But yeah, otherwise it's uneven distribution of material from the pad and such, which is why I almost always leave my brakes disengaged at a stop when I can, either in a manual or auto, and just keep an eye on my rear view to make sure I'm not gonna get rear ended.
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