C&D Bullet Sedans #1 E63, #2 S6, #3 M5
#16
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last i checked its 2006 and the MR2 and Celica were stopped in 2005. I dont know where you got that they dont handle from, because the MR2 spyder handles like a go cart and the 7th gen celica has been hailed as one of the best handling front drivers out there.......surely YOU must be confused. Even if most of the cars are dated, my point is that they know how, not wether or not the apply this knowledge.
Of all the cars you listed, only the M3 and the RX7 turn better than the MKIV supra, mostly due to how much more it weights than them. Then again, where I live we dont get USDM cars, so maybe the suspension was tuned differently for an american public.
Of all the cars you listed, only the M3 and the RX7 turn better than the MKIV supra, mostly due to how much more it weights than them. Then again, where I live we dont get USDM cars, so maybe the suspension was tuned differently for an american public.
Supra, with TEMS, still doesn't handle as well as the non-active-suspension equipped E36 M3 and FD.
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The 3rd gen MRS didn't sell because toyota didn't have the 'cajones' to put the higher powered 2ZZ engine in the car....It is underpowered (you should see what this car can do with a 2ZZ swap). It is also very small and being mid-engined it doesnt have much storage space, making it impracical for a $25k and up car. It is also rather ugly in stock form, and last I (in uppercase
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on topic - I personally wouldn't want a manual tranny M5. I'd be happy with the SMG. The magazine griped, BMW gave them what they wanted, now the gripe more.... kinda wonder if the case of manual IS is warranted (though I would want a manual IS coupe)
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Well they wanted a manual, but with electronic nannys that can be disabled.
#18
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Latest C&D has the 2007 M5 with stick up against the S6 and E63.
Apparently with the stick M5 you can not totally disable the traction/stability control. Thus the rankings
#1 E36 (231 points)
#2 S6 (230 points)
#3 M5 (213 points)
I personally think that Lexus fired the engineer who wouldn't allow the VDM to be disabled and BMW hired the guy![Smilie](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
BTW amazing how close the S6 came to winning it - its power shortage was the issue. Also of note, they really liked the E63s AMG tuned Airmatic suspension.
Apparently with the stick M5 you can not totally disable the traction/stability control. Thus the rankings
#1 E36 (231 points)
#2 S6 (230 points)
#3 M5 (213 points)
I personally think that Lexus fired the engineer who wouldn't allow the VDM to be disabled and BMW hired the guy
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BTW amazing how close the S6 came to winning it - its power shortage was the issue. Also of note, they really liked the E63s AMG tuned Airmatic suspension.
I still would take ANY of the 3.
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#19
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Since you are worrying about my orthography, maybe you should pick up some reading and comprehension skills, because I (uppercase
) did state that the RX7 (FD) and M3 (E46) turn (handle) better.
The 3rd gen MRS didn't sell because toyota didn't have the 'cajones' to put the higher powered 2ZZ engine in the car....It is underpowered (you should see what this car can do with a 2ZZ swap). It is also very small and being mid-engined it doesnt have much storage space, making it impracical for a $25k and up car. It is also rather ugly in stock form, and last I (in uppercase
) checked, the Miata/MX-5 is the defacto standard for a hairdresser's convertible... don't think you see many of these being performance minded.
on topic - I personally wouldn't want a manual tranny M5. I'd be happy with the SMG. The magazine griped, BMW gave them what they wanted, now the gripe more.... kinda wonder if the case of manual IS is warranted (though I would want a manual IS coupe)
![Big Grin](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
The 3rd gen MRS didn't sell because toyota didn't have the 'cajones' to put the higher powered 2ZZ engine in the car....It is underpowered (you should see what this car can do with a 2ZZ swap). It is also very small and being mid-engined it doesnt have much storage space, making it impracical for a $25k and up car. It is also rather ugly in stock form, and last I (in uppercase
![Wink](https://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
on topic - I personally wouldn't want a manual tranny M5. I'd be happy with the SMG. The magazine griped, BMW gave them what they wanted, now the gripe more.... kinda wonder if the case of manual IS is warranted (though I would want a manual IS coupe)
The Elise is about the same size as the 3rd gen MR2. It's using the 2ZZ engine. If all Toyota has to do to make the MR2 a better seller is to put the 2ZZ engine in it, why don't they do it? Oh, and the 2ZZ is not really that much of a "high power" engine. Before 6500 or even 7K rpm it has little torque. Why do I know? Look at my sig.
About your "don't think you see many of these being performance minded". I have not seen that many 3rd gen MR2 on the track event. Wait, may be I have seen none. But I do see a lot MX5s.
Going back to the Active Suspension part. Most mid-size "sports sedan" are just getting heavier and heavier with the safety features and non-driving related equipments. Old school shock-and-spring suspension probably just can't be tuned to deliver the level of performance with a good compromise of comfort any more.
Last edited by JZA80MHU38; 12-28-06 at 09:23 PM.
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The S6 really is't meant to compete against the M5 or the E63, but it does a decent job of it (look at its placement). The real competition for the M5 and E63 will come from the RS6 like it has been in the past. Only this time the RS6 will dominate both the M5 and the E63.
#22
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-The active suspension found on the soarer, is NOT TEMS.
-The 2ZZ we get makes 190hp (and there are TRD versions with 230hp)... the one in the XRS gets 170hp I believe.
-I did well on my SAT too. Willing to bet that I beat you.
Anyway, lets get this thing over with. Where I live we dont get many USDM cars. Maybe thats why my perspective is different than yours. The toyota I know (or knew) is (or was) a very different beast than what you guys are accustomed too. So lets just leave it at that.
-The 2ZZ we get makes 190hp (and there are TRD versions with 230hp)... the one in the XRS gets 170hp I believe.
-I did well on my SAT too. Willing to bet that I beat you.
Anyway, lets get this thing over with. Where I live we dont get many USDM cars. Maybe thats why my perspective is different than yours. The toyota I know (or knew) is (or was) a very different beast than what you guys are accustomed too. So lets just leave it at that.
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Please don't get "active suspension" or "air bags" and what ever they calls it confused with MB's airmatic suspension. Just because someone come out with an "active suspension" doesn't mean they have any experiences with it. Those cars equiped with it wheatear OEM or aftermarket are just water beds on wheels, there are really nothing active about it except for sea sickness.
The air suspension on MBs are the techno marvells in the suspension world, it gives a big heavy car the capability to handle like a sports car and yet be comfortable (relatively) with a push of a button.
#24
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Please don't get "active suspension" or "air bags" and what ever they calls it confused with MB's airmatic suspension. Just because someone come out with an "active suspension" doesn't mean they have any experiences with it. Those cars equiped with it wheatear OEM or aftermarket are just water beds on wheels, there are really nothing active about it except for sea sickness.
The air suspension on MBs are the techno marvells in the suspension world, it gives a big heavy car the capability to handle like a sports car and yet be comfortable (relatively) with a push of a button.
The air suspension on MBs are the techno marvells in the suspension world, it gives a big heavy car the capability to handle like a sports car and yet be comfortable (relatively) with a push of a button.
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![](http://planetsoarer.com/PINov03/twocars.jpg)
To improve stability, controllability and ride comfort, TOYOTA has developed as integrated chassis control system consisting of Active Four Wheel Steering (A-4WS), Active Hydropneumatic Suspension (A-SUS), ABS and TRC. The system, which is available on the current '91 model SOARER sold on the domestic market, realises a significant advance in total vehicle dynamics - due partly to the superior characteristics of the new A-4WS and A-SUS and partly to the enhancement accruing from integration - and makes an important contribution to active safety.
Driver's opinion of the system and differences between the UZZ30/31/32 (optional TEMS/airbag/active suspension models) can be found here.
now back to the topic at hand........
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The S6 really is't meant to compete against the M5 or the E63, but it does a decent job of it (look at its placement). The real competition for the M5 and E63 will come from the RS6 like it has been in the past. Only this time the RS6 will dominate both the M5 and the E63.
#26
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The S6 really is't meant to compete against the M5 or the E63, but it does a decent job of it (look at its placement). The real competition for the M5 and E63 will come from the RS6 like it has been in the past. Only this time the RS6 will dominate both the M5 and the E63.
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Audi makes great cars, but I always wonder why they have such a different product line-up strategy in the US. Either their lowest model (A4 1.8T/2.0T, A3 2.0T) or the highest model (RS and S models) are getting way more praises than their middle models (those with the 3.2V6 engines). Plus, you really have to be a die-hard Audi fans to pay that kind of money for an RS4 or RS6, when the BMW M and Mercedes AMG models are more recognized and probably cheaper or better valued down the road.
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Their product line-up focuses on building performance cars right below and above the BMW M and MB AMG product line in the past this is what they have done, at least HP wise. Now they have extremely good chassis's to go along with that power and I see the next RS6 absolutely dominating the class (If you want to keep it in that same class as the M5 and E63, but it was really meant to be a step above them). The S6 was meant to sort of bridge the gap between someone wanting the luxury and AWD utility of an A6 with 8 or 9/10th's the performance of an M5. Why do you have to be a die-hard Audi fan to realize what great cars the RS4 and RS6 are? You do have to realize that around the world (outside of the US) Audi is recognized as the equal if not superior to BMW and MB. Granted the RS6 might cost more than the M5 or E63 but the whole package, (technology, safety, luxury, reliability, and performance) will be on a whole new level when compared to the M5 and E63. I am also guessing that the RS4 will get some significant improvements when the new M3 comes out. Audi always comes out with the high-performance sedans last to make sure they stomp the competition.