jgscott

iTrader: (1)

Alright, lets explain dealer services. At least at my dealership.

Ever see a new import come in off the truck ? Would you take delivery of the car like that. You need a special solvent to remove the paper or film that the factory puts on the car. The car then has to go to service to be Mechanically readied. Then goes to detail to be washed, waxed and detailed in and out. Then the dealer pays interest for the cost of the car. The finance person takes care of sending your loan in, getting your car, warrantied with the manufacture, and transacting the deal.
The sales person then sits with you explains the features and Navi upon delivery, fills the car with gas and other little things. Based on customer survey ratings at most places they are anywhere from 95 - 99 % excellent.
Ok all for a $ 395 charge called Dealer services. Most people if had a choice to buy the car off the truck and have all this done for $ 395 would consider it a deal.

Most Lexus, Acura, Infinty, Mercedes, BMW and lux car dealer have a rating of 95 % or better customer satisfaction.

On trades. Trade comes in at $ 8,500 you send to your service shop of check out. They come up with $ 950 in work needed. Detail, bumper paint, etc, $ 400, you now own for $10.900. You look up retail it's $ 13,200, So you advertise ( which also cost $ ) for $12,995. Someone comes along and offers you $ 10,000 out the door no less means offer was $ 8900 selling price. . Can't do it.
Next one wants it, but has finance issues and Max bank will lend is $ 10,500. Ok you sell for $ 10,500 plus $1000 down = $ not counting tax, tax is not profit.$ 11,500 deal because guess what happens if you dont sell in 30- 60 days. Goes to the auction and its worth $ 8500 maybe. But we just spend $ 10,900 on that trade . Wow ! made $ 600. Then customer wants new floor mats ( after deal 2 days later and you buy them for $ 89 ). And claims there is a scrape on wheels ( that you know was not there 2 days ago ) but you fix for $ 50 . Gross profit is now $ 461.

Perception from Trader "they stole my car and sold it for" $ 12,700

Reality from dealer. Whew glad we were able to get out of that one !.

8500 trade
950 repairs tires no profit
400 detail touch up "
830 tax "
35 tag fee "
395 dealers services recovered charges payed off cust loan, sent car to service shop, detail work, obtained cust new loan and paper work, sales Manager payed for time, Finance person payed for time, Sales person payed for time.

Good thing they don't Gallop pole dealership about customers.
Lexus customers are only 7% satisfied ???????.

Strange according to my Highline Car Manufactures survey call and written survey, my individual customers are 99.3 % satisfied with their total car purchase experience from beginning to end with me.

I'm about 95 % satisfied with them. I been cussed at, lied to and on, ripped off, and treated with worst respect by some who make far less money and have way worst jobs. But that is not the norm.
I am a former 20 year retired Network engineering Manager now in the Automobile profession, I love cars and I personally love my job.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

I used to be one of those minimum wage guys (Right out of High School) that used to decoz (SP?) the cars, vacuum, wash, and pretty much do everything but the official PDI (Since in our state you need to be licensed because that involves the state annual safety inspection). So if you figure, the dealership pays someone maybe $6.00 an hour do do that work. It takes about 2 hours, maybe 3 hours if it is a large SUV or something. That is $18. Let say it takes the whole 8 hour day. That is still only $48 that the dealership paid their sales or service lot attendants for the work done. The service tech does a PDI on the car and it takes 2 hours. They get paid maybe $25 an hour. The dealer is still out only about $100 for prep work.


That is cool to charge for the paperwork. The problem is you pay for that even if you walk in with cash, or you already have a line of credit from another bank or credit union. Most people I know that finance go outside the dealer and use their own bank as whenever possible because the rates are usually better.

By the way, what extra work by the salesman would be needed to warranty a new car? Warranty comes with the new car so that shouldn't be a service the customer pays for.

That is just one example of a trade in deal. You fail to mention other deals like when someone has car paid off worth $10,000 private party and $12,500 retail. Book trade in has it for maybe $7500, but the dealer only gives you $4000. The trade in is in good mechanical shape but needs some new tires. Dealer buys new tires for $500, sends it out for detail for $250, then lists it on his lot for $14,000. Yes, we all have seen some cars selling on used car lots for more than KBB retail.

Obviously both mine and your examples are extreme polar opposites and many trade in deals fall somewhere in between, but still favor the dealer or the dealer simply wouldn't take in the trade.


PS. HAPPY NEW YEAR. I hope you have a successful year in sales

mmarshall

In "detail" the car IS washed, as you say, sometimes waxed, more often not. Most of the vehicles I've seen come off the truck don't require any solvent for the paper film, just grab the edge and pull....carefully, of course. Sometimes a little solvent will be needed for the gummy lines left at the edges. Large dealerships often handle so many cars in one day that they often don't have much time to spend on each car. I have a friend who runs and manages a new-car cleanup shop at a local dealership....they don't have time to wax every car.

And.....a major complaint I have with the so-called PDI. Tire pressures are often pumped WAY up on the truck or transporter, presumably to prevent tire flat spots or damage to the wheels underneath when the truck or transporter rocks or hits bumps. Fine. I understand that. But there are two problems with this. First, the tires are often pumped up not only way over what the auto manufacturer recommends, but are sometimes pumped up over the actual safety maximum that the tire can sustain wihout damage....THAT figure is stamped into the tire sidewall, not put on a plaque on the doorjamb or in the glove compartment like the recommend pressure. This is foolish and can be dangerous....it can lead to early tire failure even on a brand-new tire.
Second, I have put a LOT of red faces on a LOT of sales people when they PROMISE me that the car that I ( or my friend or colleague ) is looking at has DEFINITELY had tire pressures adjusted, at PDI, back where they are supposed to be...they say it is part of the routine when the vehicle comes off the truck. They ASSURE me the pressures are right...for a test drive. And that is VERY important, because, if the tires are NOT properly inflated, the car will not ride, handle, or steer like it is supposed to.
Trust me. I look at a LOT of new cars, both for myself, for others I shop with as a freelance consultant, and for CL auto reviews. Once in a while the salesman IS correct....the tires are where they are supposed to be, but more often are not. I carry my tire gauge with me, and check every car I drive now. About 80% of the time or so they are not correct.....and usually way over what they should be. I have to adjust the damn tires myself. This proves that the PDI guys are not doing what they are supposed to.

Just recently I was checking out a new Avalon for someone for a possible purchase. The Avalon is usually a comfortable-riding car....the ride on this one seemed a lot stiffer and noisier than it should have been. I commented on this to the salesman. He ASSURED me that the tires were correct. " Mr. Marshall, you DON'T have to get your gauge and check them ", he said.

Well.....went we got back to the dealership, I went, GOT my gauge, gave the tires a few minutes to cool, and checked them. 48 front, 50 rear. 32 was recomended. His face turned redder than a ripe cherry.

I let the air out to where the tires were supposed to be, briefly inspected the tires for any over-inflation damage, and then re-took the car out for another test-drive. No problems this time. ( In fact, we bought it ).
The salesman went in, got the General Manager, and the GM hmself came out of his office, came up, shook my hand, and apologized. I said, " Fine, but trust me, this happens more often than not...why do you assure customers that the tires are correct when they are not ? "
They both said.."Mr. Marshall, you've taught us a lesson....from now on they WILL be correct".

Yeah.....we'll see. This was not an isolated case, but typical of many dealerships. PDI, more often than not, just means peeling the tape off, taking off the seat covers, washing and vaccuming, and putting pinstripes and door edge guards on.

Although, unlike tire pressure, it is quite rare today for engine fluids to be off, I usually don't take a test-drive without an underhood check of oil, coolant, power steering, brake, and, in manual-transmissions, hydraulic clutch fluid, too ( automatics have to be already hot to check the fluid ). With today's big plastic engine covers, though, and restricted access, those checks are not always easy to do. So........PDI's are supposed to check underhood, too..........but usually there aren't any problems there, like with tires.

So...you see, I'm not necessarily accusing YOUR dealership of negligence in this area ( since it is in GA, I've never dealt with it ), but my point is that talk is cheap..............one can TALK all day long about what a good job the PDI's do, but the proof is in the pudding.

Jewcano

iTrader: (4)

Lying on both parties happens in any industry that involves selling to make a profit, *with included salesmen. I for example sell shoes. I am told to persuade the customer to buy the most expensive shoes we have (Magnanni's). They are good quality, and i tell the customer that. To say that most salesmen are liers, is just blatently ignorant. I don't lie to my customers, i will tell them my honest opinion, and that usually is what makes me get my sales.

rai

Dear god, you think thats a hard job?

Fill the car with gas...wow...thats deep, do you need a degree for that?

Explain how the features work, gosh thats a hard one, maybe they should get a medal for doing such hard jobs.

My point is (for the most part) the job is nothing special. Take people out for a test drive, lie about how great the car is, lie about how low a price you will sell it for. Say how great/reliable the car is one minute and try to sell an extended service contract the next.

Tell me you never heard this one:

Sales guy: this is a good deal, I don't think he'll go down a penny, already we're giving you a good deal on the trade-in etc...
5 minutes later...Sales guy: You're in luck, we found some special dealer cupons that we're allowed to use before the end of the month, very limited and that will allow us to knock another $500 off the price.

The point is, many dealerships will give you a high interest loan or rip-off the trade-in or rip-off the sale price or all three if you let them.

You complain about a buyer who low-***** you on a price..BFD you want me to tell you what to do with that? Here's what you can do. Tell them thats not a deal. Whoo thats so hard. Happens every day.

I don't go into Burger King and offer them $2 for a combo (that is selling for $5). But guess what, BK doesn't sell the combo meal for different prices to every different person (like many car dealers do). It's not like they see a little old lady and charge her $9 for the same mean b/c she doesn't know any better and then laugh about how they got a live one (LOL -- NOT)

mmarshall

Buying the most expensive shoes, though, does not necessarily mean the most profit. It depends, of course, on the mark-up.
You might actually end up making more profit on cheaper shoes when ( and if ) you take sales volume into consideration.

jgscott

iTrader: (1)

Guys this is becoming very argumentative. Rai almost Hostile. I'm point out facts, and you guys are the typical " the dealer ripped me off hypo points ".

OK CLK6speed,

Paint removal, road tar, bumper refinish, door and body ding removal, scratch touch up and fill in. I can't tell you about the place you worked but, it ain't just a wash and wax at most Luxury car dealerships.

Paperwork ? Warranty's have to be activated, titles have to be applied for, a buyer order and lien info have to applied to the title for outside loans, their more work than in house financing, etc, etc.

Trades go both ways, who forces anyone to trade the car at any value ?

PDI - Add road test for safety, activate XM, activate Navi, its about 3 hrs'.
OK so you could take your car with the film on it, get it washed waxed and detailed. Have the 3 hrs PDI done, all the paperwork and gas filled, a 30 min overview of the car and operations. And loan, title, and tags work done for saving $ 395 ????

Rai:
Tell me you never heard this one:

My credit is ok.
I'll buy for $7000 less but then buys for a $ 2000 discount.

I can get 3.9 at credit Union or bank. Their best rate really is " 5.9 "

Most I can pay is $ 410 I on a budget, then gets into finiance and add, running boards, clear bra, other options and warranty and OK's payment at $ 479 per month.

Other dealer offered $ 10K for my trade, payments at $ 410.
(We know them so we call them they say "we wrote down for cust trade was worth $ 8K MAX" payments were $ 468 per mo. )

Its never been in a accident, Car Fax says, " Severe Impact ". Cust says it was hit from behind it was not my fault.



Rai Give me a break. Customer lie their behinds off. And I bet you are one of those. If you don't respect someones job, they are going to try and make a nice fat commission deal off of you and I bet they DO $$$$$$.

rai

As for trade-ins they make you sign a waiver (last car I sold) saying to the best of my knowledge the car is free of known problems etc.. if that's binding I suppose they can make me take the car back if they find some hidden accident damage. For what its worth, they should do dilligence on the cars they buy. If they are getting ripped off by dishonest sellers, thats bad. i'm not saying its OK for the seller to lie. Where did I say it's OK for a buyer/seller to lie or cheat

However your logic is that b/c some sellers/buyers may lie, than it's OK for the salesmen to get over on an unsuspecting person. You certainly said point blank that you hope a salesman gets over on me (makes a ton of loot). It's too bad a salesperson has to do their job (like it's so hard) and you say well I hope you get robbed by a salesperson. Thats equal (at least to your logic its equal and it shows me where you are at).

As for your saying people come in and want a good deal or they say they have good credit, well I think it's possible to get to the bottom fairly easy and as I said if they want payments that are too low then (boo-hoo) don't make the deal. There is no way I'm feeling sorry for a dealer or salesman b/c a buyer wants to save money.

The car dealership system workes by charging different people different prices. I go buy an Ipod I don't have to dicker with the sales person at best buy, I just see the price and thats that.

As far as me not respecting a sales person, well I was pointing out the truth, you said the sales guy has to put gas in the car (whoopdy-do) I put gas in my car every day its not too hard. They have to tell me how the car works wow thats so hard; here is the gas release, here are the wipers, here is the parking brake, here is the defroster (my lord how do they manage to keep all this vital information in their head?).

Don't be sad, you bring up the topic and ask our opinion, and when we say 'many' salesmen are trying to get over on the buyer and we don't feel sorry that the salesman has to make a copy of our license or fill the car up with gas or whatever chores they have to do. I'd be happy if I could buy a car on the internet and cut out the poor overworked sales person, I'm sure they'll find a job at walmart or whatever else they are qualified for.

mmarshall

I'd like to cut in here with two questions for you, jgscott, that no one else seems to be considering:

If a sales manager, or someone higher rank at the dealership than an ordinary salesperson, has to personally approve and sign every deal, even with no-haggle or Internet discount prices, then WHY do they even bother to hire ordinary salespeople in the first place? Seems like a waste of time to me. That's like you hiring someone to go out and cut your grass, and then not having them show up, and you having to do it in the first place.

Second, why do YOU as a salesman ( and when I say you I don't mean YOU in particular, but salespeople in general ), when you are negotiating, have to run back and forth between the customer and the sales manager's desk or office like a bouncing ball? " Just a minute, I'll see what he says ", then 5 minutes later...... " Just a minute, I'll see if he'll accept that ", then a few minutes later....." just a minute again, maybe he will change his mind". This is nonsense....absolute nonsense.
Let the sales MANAGER get off his/her a**, come down out of the booth, sit with you and the customer, and discuss the deal in a 3-way conversation RIGHT THERE. IN THE OPEN. THAT way, he or she can't make comments behind the customer's back like ......" Go back out there and see if you can't take them for little more ". We customers and auto consultants are not idiots. We may pretend like we don't know what goes on in there, but trust us...we do.

Now...once again, I'm not saying that you or your dealership operate this way, but too many do. That is one reason why I try to buy and shop from people in the buisness I know, and have previous experience with, rather than strangers.

rai

BTW don't get all teary-eyed. I'm just taking the oppisite position in this discussion. You seem to think OP will feel sorry for the sales people, I haven't read any that do.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

In defense of salesman or sales managers since i do have friends in those positions, that is the game. The saying goes don't hate the payer hate the game I didn't come on this topic to say dealerships are all crooks and customers are always right. The original topic was who is more dishonest. If the dealerships where getting hosed and the short end of the stick the majority of the time they would all go out of business. The facts are of all the sour/bad deals made, they are heavily against the customer. The majority of deals have some happy medium where the customer is happy and the dealer and sales staff make a nice profit.

For me personally, I don't need to get the car at invoice. I'll pay MRSP for a car if I really want that car now. Most of the time I'll settle for a deal that I can afford and be happy with. If the sales team agrees with that deal I assume they are pleased with the deal themselves or they would not sell me the car.

The topic is who is more dishonest. I generally go to certain salesman at certain dealerships because I know them. In that case they don't feed me a line of crap because they know I probably know as much or more about the car than they do. I have though been to dealerships where they feed my a load of BS on a car to try and make a sale. This is not hypothetical as it happened to me. Often a salesman earns my respect when he simply says "I don't know but I'll find out for you" rather than try and wing it and make up something.

mmarshall

.

I do too. At one local dealership, both the GM and buisness manager are people I went to high school with decades ago.

No arguments there either. Supply-and-demand on a specific vehicle has always played a significant role in pricing, except at no-haggle dealerships....and even then, you sometimes have to bargain on your trade-in or finance rates. But even a hard-to-get car in high demand and short supply is not an excuse for clear gouging...as happened when the Honda CRX, Mazda Miata, Chrysler PT Cruiser, VW New Beetle, Nissan 350Z, Ford 2-seat T-Bird, and Plymouth Prowler first came out.


Yes...I respect an honest salesperson just like you do. People like you and me know cars and are not easy to fool. Nothing turns me off more than a salesman who THINKS he or she knows something about the car when he or she actually doesn't. I went through that with a co-worker a few weeks ago looking for and buying a new Hyundai Sonata...and because of that ( an overpuffed salesperson ), we ended up getting a Sonata at the dealership's sister branch a few miles away instead....he B.S.'ed his way right out of a commission.

Of course, that doesn't mean WE'RE infallible either. We're human too....I'll be the first one to admit it. Once in a while a salesperson will show me how to do something I can't figure out for myself, like with BMW's notoriously difficult I-Drive or the complex self-parking feature on the Lexus LS460....I appreciate that and respect them for that.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

I agree. I hate price gouging. I mean, I took economics 101 myself and know about supply and demand, but someone needs to get a conscious sometimes. I myself would try to make as much profit as I can, but from everything I have sold so far I have always IMHO priced it right or even took a smaller profit to make the other person happy. That may be one reason why I'm not rich I just can't take someone to the cleaners even if he is willing himself. It just doesn't seem right for me to take advantage of the unknowing or even stupid n some cases.

Exactly. I don't think any of us claim to be the know it alls on cars. Even at my own job I still have a lot to learn.

jgscott

iTrader: (1)

Would you take your $ 25 K car you have up for sale that min you will sell for is $ 23K to meet a friend of a friend who is looking to buy a car that they have been unable to find what they want when all they have is $ 17k MAX to spend ?

" It doesn't cost anything to let a guy test drive a car, so you don't make a sale on every one that walks in the door." RAI ??????????????

I'm still waiting.

As far as what is called Desking Deals the Sales manager stays at the sales desk to create the deal based on customer requirements of cost payments and terms. With 6 or 17 deals at one time would anyone want to wait for the one Manager to get free to help ?
One thing always funny to me is that buyers come in and take 15-20 mins looking or more, another 30 mins test riding, 5-10 mins on cell phone or going to the bathroom. Then sit down explain an offer that maybe way out the the park and then get impatient for 5 mins while someone, pulls credit for your best rate, works on payment term calculations, and decides discount sales percentages, calls around to see if a wholesaler would bid more for your trade to help you get more.

Just want to ask a question here please.

Lets say a someone sells you their car because they need money. The car is worth $ 15K NADA Retail. You tell them all you have is $ 9K disposable cash. They say hey, I'll sell it for that. I need money now. You then buy it for $ 9K. The car is not in the best condition and you bring it back to a top condition.

Now you decide to sell it and ask $14.5K because is a nice car and you put money into it. Should you now only sell it for $ 10K so that you won't be someone who is " Gouging ". You should not be allowed to make a great profit.

Another question: looking at a 2002 Lex GS430. You saw dealer has price on web of $ 24K. You go in to look at. Car is in A-1 shape. They have window sticker on car of $ 17K by mistake wrong sticker on wrong car. Salesperson nor Manager realizes. You make offer, sign contract give certified bank check and get the 2002 GS430 car for $ 16.5. Now you feel bad and say " I feel bad, I ripped the dealer off ?????

Be Honest

jgscott

iTrader: (1)

Pure Ignorance !