Who is most untruthful Shopper or Dealers ?
12-31-06, 03:22 PM
#1
Who is most untruthful Shopper or Dealers ?
I would like to start a respectfull conversation about Automobile shoppers and dealers.
I am in the auto industry, and am a sucessfull professional consultant. I always hear these stories about car dealers and salespeople but wonder if any have considered how diffucult, unprofessional, rude, and dishonest amoung other things car shopper/buyer can be.
Please let stick to the facts and not go way out with, he said, she said, I heard stories. Anyone else in the Car business please free to kick in.
Things I see happen all the time.
Shoppers come in and want to test ride something that they ultimatly can no where near afford. If you try to ask up front about price they say, I don't know or it does not matter.
Customers bring in trades that they have tried to sell and can't, know needs major work and has problems, or has been in a accident but do not disclose any of it.
Ask for way above value for their trade in, based on book values, but don't want to consider book value on the car they are trying to buy. If the dealer was asking $ 2000 - $4000 over for the car they were looking at, they would call the police and claim the dealer a thief.
Negotiate a selling price, then want payments to equal less than the total amount borrowed. Borrow $ 30K only want to make payment paying back $ 24K.
And the ultimate dishonest statement " you got a card, I'll car you back or I'll be back.
Why not say, I'm not sure, I "may" get back with you.
Thats just a few !
I am in the auto industry, and am a sucessfull professional consultant. I always hear these stories about car dealers and salespeople but wonder if any have considered how diffucult, unprofessional, rude, and dishonest amoung other things car shopper/buyer can be.
Please let stick to the facts and not go way out with, he said, she said, I heard stories. Anyone else in the Car business please free to kick in.
Things I see happen all the time.
Shoppers come in and want to test ride something that they ultimatly can no where near afford. If you try to ask up front about price they say, I don't know or it does not matter.
Customers bring in trades that they have tried to sell and can't, know needs major work and has problems, or has been in a accident but do not disclose any of it.
Ask for way above value for their trade in, based on book values, but don't want to consider book value on the car they are trying to buy. If the dealer was asking $ 2000 - $4000 over for the car they were looking at, they would call the police and claim the dealer a thief.
Negotiate a selling price, then want payments to equal less than the total amount borrowed. Borrow $ 30K only want to make payment paying back $ 24K.
And the ultimate dishonest statement " you got a card, I'll car you back or I'll be back.
Why not say, I'm not sure, I "may" get back with you.
Thats just a few !
12-31-06, 03:49 PM
#2
Lexus Fanatic
You are assuming, by your statement, a hypothetical situation that may or may not be true. Don't try to judge the ultimate wealth of a customer by his/her dress, mannerisms, or even speech. Some people who can afford a Porsche 911 Turbo may decide, after test-driving one, that they would rather buy a Boxster S or Cayman for half the price and leave the rest of the money in the bank....nothing wrong with that.
Customers bring in trades that they have tried to sell and can't, know needs major work and has problems, or has been in a accident but do not disclose any of it.
Ask for way above value for their trade in, based on book values, but don't want to consider book value on the car they are trying to buy. If the dealer was asking $ 2000 - $4000 over for the car they were looking at, they would call the police and claim the dealer a thief.
It is sometimes difficult to determine an accurate trade-in. Not only do customers and appraisers often disagree, but even such well-known and respected sources as NADA and Kelly Blue Book often disagree on the same vehicle in the same condition. But dealers often do low-ball on trades. I keep my used cars, for example, in virtually mint condition, and dealerships have varied enormously over the years in what they actually offer me. Some, such as the Subaru dealership I last dealt with, offered full KBB ( for one thing, I had known the salesman for years ) . So sometimes I sell privately, but if the offer is good enough, I'll take them up on it. Same with many of the people I advise and shop with....dealers sometimes offer them realistic figures and sometimes don't.
Negotiate a selling price, then want payments to equal less than the total amount borrowed. Borrow $ 30K only want to make payment paying back $ 24K.
And the ultimate dishonest statement " you got a card, I'll car you back or I'll be back.
Why not say, I'm not sure, I "may" get back with you.
Why not say, I'm not sure, I "may" get back with you.
First of all, do YOU ask a customer's permission when YOU decide to take a day off, take a vacation, or even leave the dealership and go somewhere ELSE and get another job? The employee turnover rate at some dealerships.....especially some of the more poorly-run ones.....is like a revolving door.
And what about the times customers DO come back and ask for the salesman only to find out that he or she has gotten tired of selling Fords or can't get along with the sales manager or general manager and has decided to go somewhere else and sell Chevys instead?
Second, the customer has a right to go to another dealership and try out a competing vehicle or a competing price on the same vehicle if he or she desires. Just because you give them a nice slick buisness card does not force them to actually buy from you.
So, you see........I'm not trying to be rude or argumentative, just trying to point out where you are correct and where there are two sides to the story, that's all.
Last edited by mmarshall; 12-31-06 at 04:21 PM.
12-31-06, 03:50 PM
#3
I've seen it both ways. Over all customers generally get the short end of the deal though. If that were not the case dealerships would go out of business. I've seen a car dealer give me $5K for a trade in, then turn around and try to sell it on their lot for $16K. I figure a reasonable retail price would be $8-9K. When i worked at a dealer, I've seen them charge $600 for paint protection which is basically a wax job. I know, I had to apply it. I've seen dealers charge $300 for fabric protection which they made us spray on some scotch guard. I've seen dealerships use the lot techs to do PDI inspection on new cars (That is againsst the law in some states as you need to be licensed). I've seen dealer techs disable the cars odometer and use the car to get lunch or run errands.
Basically, everyone needs to look our for their best interests. There are far more customers getting ripped off by dealers than dealers getting ripped off by customers. Dealers wouldn't be making the profit they do if they were getting screwed by customers the majority of the time.
Basically, everyone needs to look our for their best interests. There are far more customers getting ripped off by dealers than dealers getting ripped off by customers. Dealers wouldn't be making the profit they do if they were getting screwed by customers the majority of the time.
12-31-06, 04:20 PM
#4
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The buyer should go in looking out for number one. The salesperson (IMO) should not lie (which they do). The dealer is going to sell the car for a profit, it's just a matter of the 'rip-off factor' that the sales person is after and why they lie and cheat. Many sales people lie in order to rip off an much over charge so they can get a fat bonus IMO
I prefer a no-haggle buying experience, where the sales person gets paid on buyer satisfaction and also on the number of cars sold, but not on how big a rip-off they can pull over.
I know a guy that worked for a Ford dealer, and they had an old guy came in traded and bought another car, then the sales manager was bragging how he got over on the old guy something like a net $8K profit on the transaction. Like he wanted a high-five for how great a sale he had made.
Last time I went to a Toyota dealer and I told the sales guy I was still looking at other brands and I'd let him know if I was interested in buying a car from him, then every other day he was calling me and my wife to let me know he had the car for me (etc..). I was like WTF dude did I say I wanted you to call me? No I said I'll call you..Stop f-en calling me.
Last edited by rai; 12-31-06 at 04:39 PM.
12-31-06, 04:32 PM
#5
Lexus Fanatic
I agree. No-haggle dealerships, especially the ones with the Internet no-haggle prices, are becoming, more and more, the way to go. However, many of the same add-ons are still piled on (or are attempted to be piled on ) after the basic sale.
12-31-06, 04:55 PM
#6
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They have families and they they have bills just like me and you. The car dealer exists to make a profit. If there was no money to be made no one would be a salesman.
I have no fight with sales person making a buck. But it's dispicable when they lie and cheat which many do.
Any argument that says "buyers go in to test drive and otherwise waste time" will get a Big f-en deal from me. Its like a bartender saying he doesn't like to hear people talk, thats part of the job.
It doesn't cost anything to let a guy test drive a car, so you don't make a sale on every one that walks in the door. Who ever said you would? All I have to say to that is if you don't like the job do something else. You are getting paid to serve.
Last edited by rai; 12-31-06 at 05:02 PM.
12-31-06, 05:03 PM
#7
First of all, with some obvious exceptions, how do YOU know, and how do THEY know, if they can or cannot afford the vehicle, UNTIL you sit down with them and discuss price, financing, incentives, and payments? You are assuming, by your statement, a hypothetical situation that may or may not be true.
Don't try to judge the ultimate wealth of a customer by his/her dress, mannerisms, or even speech. Some people who can afford a Porsche 911 Turbo may decide, after test-driving one, that they would rather buy a Boxster S or Cayman for half the price and leave the rest of the money in the bank....nothing wrong with that.
You are correct. I have seen this myself. I don't condone lying or cover-ups from either customer or salesperson. But a good sharp service tech or mechanic, on close inspection, should be able to spot damage....heck, I can, myself, and have often done so.
It is sometimes difficult to determine an accurate trade-in. Not only do customers and appraisers often disagree, but even such well-known and respected sources as NADA and Kelly Blue Book often disagree on the same vehicle in the same condition. But dealers often do low-ball on trades. I keep my used cars, for example, in virtually mint condition, and dealerships have varied enormously over the years in what they actually offer me. Some, such as the Subaru dealership I last dealt with, offered full KBB ( for one thing, I had known the salesman for years ) . So sometimes I sell privately, but if the offer is good enough, I'll take them up on it. Same with many of the people I advise and shop with....dealers sometimes offer them realistic figures and sometimes don't.
Well..........don't you guys do EXACTLY the same thing, in reverse, when you negotiate a price....even a second-sticker ADM ( additional market value ) and THEN, on top of that, add dealer processing fees and even advertising fees in some cases..........and THEN, on top of THAT, march the customer into the buisness office where a nice spiffily-dressed male or female financial officer starts the additional routine of extended warranties, rustproofing, paint sealants, alarms, LOJACK, service contracts, etc..... to try and jack up the ultimate price still farther?
Well, two things.....
First of all, do YOU ask a customer's permission when YOU decide to take a day off, take a vacation, or even leave the dealership and go somewhere ELSE and get another job? The employee turnover rate at some dealerships.....especially some of the more poorly-run ones.....is like a revolving door.
And what about the times customers DO come back and ask for the salesman only to find out that he or she has gotten tired of selling Fords or can't get along with the sales manager or general manager and has decided to go somewhere else and sell Chevys instead?
Second, the customer has a right to go to another dealership and try out a competing vehicle or a competing price on the same vehicle if he or she desires. Just because you give them a nice slick buisness card does not force them to actually buy from you.
So, you see........I'm not trying to be rude or arguementative, just trying to point out where you are correct and where there are two sides to the story, that's all.
You are assuming, by your statement, a hypothetical situation that may or may not be true. Don't try to judge the ultimate wealth of a customer by his/her dress, mannerisms, or even speech. Some people who can afford a Porsche 911 Turbo may decide, after test-driving one, that they would rather buy a Boxster S or Cayman for half the price and leave the rest of the money in the bank....nothing wrong with that.
You are correct. I have seen this myself. I don't condone lying or cover-ups from either customer or salesperson. But a good sharp service tech or mechanic, on close inspection, should be able to spot damage....heck, I can, myself, and have often done so.
It is sometimes difficult to determine an accurate trade-in. Not only do customers and appraisers often disagree, but even such well-known and respected sources as NADA and Kelly Blue Book often disagree on the same vehicle in the same condition. But dealers often do low-ball on trades. I keep my used cars, for example, in virtually mint condition, and dealerships have varied enormously over the years in what they actually offer me. Some, such as the Subaru dealership I last dealt with, offered full KBB ( for one thing, I had known the salesman for years ) . So sometimes I sell privately, but if the offer is good enough, I'll take them up on it. Same with many of the people I advise and shop with....dealers sometimes offer them realistic figures and sometimes don't.
Well..........don't you guys do EXACTLY the same thing, in reverse, when you negotiate a price....even a second-sticker ADM ( additional market value ) and THEN, on top of that, add dealer processing fees and even advertising fees in some cases..........and THEN, on top of THAT, march the customer into the buisness office where a nice spiffily-dressed male or female financial officer starts the additional routine of extended warranties, rustproofing, paint sealants, alarms, LOJACK, service contracts, etc..... to try and jack up the ultimate price still farther?
Well, two things.....
First of all, do YOU ask a customer's permission when YOU decide to take a day off, take a vacation, or even leave the dealership and go somewhere ELSE and get another job? The employee turnover rate at some dealerships.....especially some of the more poorly-run ones.....is like a revolving door.
And what about the times customers DO come back and ask for the salesman only to find out that he or she has gotten tired of selling Fords or can't get along with the sales manager or general manager and has decided to go somewhere else and sell Chevys instead?
Second, the customer has a right to go to another dealership and try out a competing vehicle or a competing price on the same vehicle if he or she desires. Just because you give them a nice slick buisness card does not force them to actually buy from you.
So, you see........I'm not trying to be rude or arguementative, just trying to point out where you are correct and where there are two sides to the story, that's all.
How do you know you can afford ? I'm talking about the obvious, because it happens allday long. Paying $400 a month now on a car you bought for $ 20K you now want to trade. Now looking at a $39K car and want to pay no more than $ 470 a month.
Want to pay cash for $ 20K drive out. What dealership does not charge Tax, Tag, Dealer services. Looking at a $ 25K sticker car.
Salesperson ask what price range or payment. Answer "it doesn't matter ", I'm not concerned.
I'm not talking about judging a customer by the way they look, I"m talking about picking out a $ 31K used car, working it down to $ 28K, asking for payments with $ 0 down then wanting a payment of $470 per month. The payment with Low interest will e close to $ 600 per mo.It is sometimes difficult to determine an accurate trade-in you say. OK you have KBB, Edmonds and NADA. You want well below dealer price on car you are buying. They show you Trade Value from books and condition estimate. You still want $ 2000 - 4000 over value of your car. You have option to take trade out and keep it. You have been to other dealership who have appraised close to same. Yet same web site my A-1 cond Certified warrant backed car is not worth Book Value.
About Dealer services fees. It's a industry standard. They are not hidden. Warranties are a great things, most customers recover up to 3-4 times the warranty cost in shop repairs. You don't have to buy a warranty. If you have good credit and buy a car you have to be use to have offers come to you, even credit card companies offer buyer protection warranties. They are all your decision, you have the choice to say no. Even Best Buys sell those things. Are all warranty sellers crooks ?
But you missed my point. You cannot borrow $ 25K from any financial institution that I know of and only payback $ 20 in payments. Reality is for the amount of purchase and time. Car loans rates are a great deal compared to other industry loans. Some are 0 % plus rebates. Still can't borrow and payback less than borrow.
As far as " I'll be back " missed my point again. Most times not an honest statement. Period. No one has to come back. Not saying that.
Lets keep this conversational and mature please. I have my Flame Retardant suite ready to put on just in case.
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12-31-06, 05:06 PM
#8
I agree. I hate it when dealers expect you to sit down and deal for the car as soon as you get done with a test drive. Often people like to test drive all the cars in their price range whether they anticipate buying it or not. You never know when you might test drive a car you thought you wouldn't buy only to really like it and include it on your short list.
Test drives are simply that. To test drive the car to see if one likes it or dislikes it. To be fair, if I test drive a car that I have no plans on buying that day or maybe ever, I let the sales guy know and ask him if it is a slow time for him. If so, its a go. If not, I come back another day. I also don't like it when sales people make you test drive a lower model when you are interested in the upper model. Like when they make you drive the IS250 even if you want the IS350. They say if you like the IS250 you'll love the IS350. Specialty cars like the M or AMG I can understand though.
12-31-06, 05:07 PM
#9
I've seen it both ways. Over all customers generally get the short end of the deal though. If that were not the case dealerships would go out of business. I've seen a car dealer give me $5K for a trade in, then turn around and try to sell it on their lot for $16K. I figure a reasonable retail price would be $8-9K. When i worked at a dealer, I've seen them charge $600 for paint protection which is basically a wax job. I know, I had to apply it. I've seen dealers charge $300 for fabric protection which they made us spray on some scotch guard. I've seen dealerships use the lot techs to do PDI inspection on new cars (That is againsst the law in some states as you need to be licensed). I've seen dealer techs disable the cars odometer and use the car to get lunch or run errands.
Basically, everyone needs to look our for their best interests. There are far more customers getting ripped off by dealers than dealers getting ripped off by customers. Dealers wouldn't be making the profit they do if they were getting screwed by customers the majority of the time.
Basically, everyone needs to look our for their best interests. There are far more customers getting ripped off by dealers than dealers getting ripped off by customers. Dealers wouldn't be making the profit they do if they were getting screwed by customers the majority of the time.
The one other thing you are leaving out is that there is also a paint protection Warranty that stands behind that service. Most dealer don't sell that service anymore. Believe it or not, the companies that sell those products do a great sales pitch to get the dealers to buy it. It's based on customer satisfaction of protecting their investment. Dealers get sold too !
Guys you're missing my point about the test drive part. Please read again. You don't have to buy on a test drive.
Let's go the other way. Would you take your $ 25 K car you have up for sale that min you will sell for is $ 23K to meet a friend of a friend who is looking to buy a car that they have been unable to find what they want when all they have is $ 17k MAX to spend ?
" It doesn't cost anything to let a guy test drive a car, so you don't make a sale on every one that walks in the door." RAI ??????????????
Please again check the title of this thread. Thanks
Last edited by jgscott; 12-31-06 at 05:34 PM.
12-31-06, 05:12 PM
#10
Lexus Fanatic
And I already noted that you are often correct about customers who try to hide defects and accident damage....but is a fact that dealerships do also..
12-31-06, 05:25 PM
#11
) The dealers have the upper hand compared to your average consumer and they know it. More often than not they will not talk you out of a bad deal but talk you into one. Let's be honest. Most dealers look out only for their best interests. Consumers should do the same. That really is how the market place works.
12-31-06, 05:25 PM
#12
Lexus Fanatic
Warranties are a great things, most customers recover up to 3-4 times the warranty cost in shop repairs. You don't have to buy a warranty. If you have good credit and buy a car you have to be use to have offers come to you, even credit card companies offer buyer protection warranties. They are all your decision, you have the choice to say no. Even Best Buys sell those things. Are all warranty sellers crooks ?
But you missed my point. You cannot borrow $ 25K from any financial institution that I know of and only payback $ 20 in payments.
As far as " I'll be back " missed my point again. Most times not an honest statement. Period. No one has to come back. Not saying that.
Lets keep this conversational and mature please. I have my Flame Retardant suite ready to put on just in case.
Last edited by mmarshall; 12-31-06 at 05:32 PM.
12-31-06, 05:39 PM
#13
Anyway, don't get me wrong. I don't think all salesman or dealerships are crooks. I bought our RX330 from a friend. When he told me the dealership wouldn't allow negotiations on this car (04 RX330 bought in April 03) I believed him because he is my friend and also because he could have gotten me a killer deal on any other Lexus that wasn't a brand new model. I paid the price because I wanted the car. I have another salesman friend at Acura who is really a car enthusiast/SCCA racer that happens to sell cars. When he tells me about a car and its strengths and weakness I believe him. When a salesman tells me this car is perfect, bests the competition in every way, I turn him off. If you are honest you know nothing can be the best at everything. I trust the salesman that explain to me the weakness of the car they are selling just as well as they do its strengths.
12-31-06, 05:43 PM
#14
Lexus Fanatic
Also, Sir ( or Ma'am, whichever the case may be ).....I'm not saying that YOU are a crook, by any means....and at least, you brought the whole topic of auto buying for discussion, which is a good thing.
But take a look at this recent Gallup Poll, which rated public approval of various professions.
Nurses rated highest............car salespeople ranked lowest, with only a 7 % postive rating. That tells you something.
December 14, 2006
Nurses Top List of Most Honest and Ethical Professions
Integrity of most medical professionals also highly rated
by Lydia Saad
Once again, nurses top Gallup's annual list of occupations rated for their honesty and ethical standards, earning high marks from more than four in five Americans. Four of the five next most highly regarded professions are also in the medical field. Car salesmen are the lowest-rated professionals, but several others, including HMO managers, lawyers, and members of Congress have major image problems.
But take a look at this recent Gallup Poll, which rated public approval of various professions.
Nurses rated highest............car salespeople ranked lowest, with only a 7 % postive rating. That tells you something.
December 14, 2006
Nurses Top List of Most Honest and Ethical Professions
Integrity of most medical professionals also highly rated
by Lydia Saad
Once again, nurses top Gallup's annual list of occupations rated for their honesty and ethical standards, earning high marks from more than four in five Americans. Four of the five next most highly regarded professions are also in the medical field. Car salesmen are the lowest-rated professionals, but several others, including HMO managers, lawyers, and members of Congress have major image problems.
