Hameed

Hi mmarshall, this whole "image" thing may be stupid and does cause problems etc, however it is not quite as black and white as it may seem to appear.

It is part of human nature - plain and simple. I am not saying it is a good or bad thing - I am accepting it for what it is. It is a part of human nature and we cannot escape from it.

Do you think "Lexus" as an entity would exist today if not for the same "image" issue? I highly doubt it. The whole Lexus entity was created by brilliant people who saw the importance of image. Industries exist because of it.

Are we better off because of it? A resounding "YES". Ofcourse it is not as simplistic as I am making it sound, however "image" does in fact have it's importance despite the negative effects you have pointed out.

Another facet of car image is simply the fact that cars are made for the general public and the general public is affected by image - whether we admit it or not. Car manufacturers cannot cater just cater to those people that don't care about image either.

Hypothetically speaking, I think the X-type is a butt-ugly car not befitting the image of Jaguar - small, ugly and not really a "real" Jaguar. Yes a myopic view you may point out, however I am an example of Joe public forming an uneducated opinion on a car I never drove, but simply basing my conclusions on first impressions about this car in particular. Trust me, a lot of people do the same thing. Are you going to call Joe public stupid or just human? Maybe stupid humans.

In the end it does not matter - life goes on and "image" will always be important to a lot of people.

Certain companies exist because of image.
Lifestyles exist because of image.

mmarshall

Thanks, Hameed. You and I have discussed the image question before....and I'm glad we can discuss it civilly. I know it is a sensitive issue for some people, and they feel strongly about it both ways.

My experience, based on many years of freelance auto consulting, is that people are usually better off forgetting what the Jones's think and just buying what is best for their own needs....but I respect your views, and I know that some people are simply seduced by an auto company's logo and brand name.
Now, of course, if you are Jay Leno or the Sultan of Brunei, you can AFFORD a garage full of exotics......money is no object, image or not.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

You are both right. Many want to 'be seen' with a certain brand of car, watch, clothing, whatever, and many are impressed by seeing others with those things.

mmarshall is right in saying it SHOULDN'T matter, and Hameed is right in saying it matters to a vast number of people.

It is what it is.

Hameed

I for one bought my GS400 4 years ago simply for the following reasons:

1) I wanted a powerful, luxurious V8 car
2) I wanted a car that was built to last
3) I wanted a high quality car

To me it had nothing to do with image, however to others I know (less fortunate I might add), felt my purchase was based entirely on image. Go figure.

LexFather

As a Lexus owner, we can't help but be "proud" of our purchase, since it is a very successful brand. I am sure BMW and Benz owners feel the same way, that is how they get away with selling 1 series and A/B class cars. People want to own a "successful" car brand. People want to be associated with owning a "winner". Hell that is 1/2 the reason people debate like crazy with mag comparos. People want to own a "winner".

We might not "think" we are swayed by it, but there is something about owning a successful marque instead of maybe a good car in a average or sub-par brand.

The easist way to tell is
1. Successful brand does all the talking for you
2. Unsuccessful brand, you have to do the talking/explaining about your purchase.

I don't think it is a major part of why we buy a Lexus but it sure as hell helps.

natnut

Let me add my 2 cents :

I think the car buying public is more sophisticated than we give them credit for. True, many people buy cars due to the image they think it projects. But think about it: did this public image appear out of thin air? Or did those prestigious car companies work hard for their perceived reputation?

BMW has been building great handling cars which almost telepathically communicate the road surface to the driver via the steering wheel and their seats.This has gone on for years.

MB arguably invented the motor-car and they have had years of building overengineered,safe-as-tank vehicles. Their image is built on their heritage and years of great safety records.

Lexus faced an uphill task when it first started out but it prised away market share from the European luxury marques one satisfied customer at a time due to its undisputed quality and refinement of its engine and chassis as well as its unprecedented reliability and extensive standard equipment set. Lexus has stuck to these values unrelentingly over the years and have not deviated from it.

My point is that all 3 brands have a cachet in the market with car buyers but it's a cachet that they EARNED OVER YEARS. Image and reputation does not build overnight but comes with CONSISTENCY.

You can think of image as credit that you build up with the public. Just as you can store up credit, you can also deplete credit if you continue to withdraw without banking anything in return. Same thing goes for image. You can only live off your reputation for so long before you have to back it up with great products.

However, those car companies who have built up reputation over years will need years of churning of poor quality product before that store of affection the public has for them runs out and their reputation is ruined. Case in point: Daimler Chrysler is at the beginning of a slippery slope to ruining its rep due to an abysmal reliability record. Fortunately, its vast store of goodwill is keeping old customers from abandoning it in droves. It can arrest the slide by reversing this trend of unreliability.

One car company that may have spent all its "credit" is Jaguar. Its slide has gone on for too long and for too many people. There is a small chance at its revival but only if Ford(its owner) is willing to keep at it for years and not just depend on a single "miracle" model like the upcoming XF sedan to suddenly reverse years of shoddy unimaginative cars.

An opposite example has been Hyundai. It has had 2 quality products in a row with the Sonata and the Azera--build quality has been almost Toyota-like. People are beginning to sit up and say:" Hmm, their cars are surprisingly good."If it continues on this run of good cars, Hyundai may take over the spot currently occupied by the Japanese automobile makers.

All the marketing genius in the world and all the celebrities hawking your products on TV can't help your image if your cars have been crap for years. To paraphrase a certain President :"It's the CAR stupid!"

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

natnut - great post!!!!

mmarshall

ALMOST Toyota quality? Go look at and test-drive the new Sonata, Azera, and especially the new Santa Fe, and you will see there is no ALMOST about it. Last year, the Sonata was the most reliable family sedan in Consumer Reports' database; this year ( so far ) it is the Azera. The Santa Fe is brand new right now, and too new to have a significant reliability record, ( and I have not formally reviewed it yet..it's on my list ), but the new, larger, Santa Fe, just upon an initial visual inspection, is awesome.....the doors, for one, shut like bank vaults.....the way Mercedes used to 15-20 years ago.

My next vehicle may likely be a Hyundai.....especially if they make a good AWD sedan or wagon like the Subaru Legacy / Outback...something they have not done, so far.