07 Toyota Camry Transmission NHTSA Report (merged threads)
01-06-07, 01:02 PM
#46
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No, it would not be fair to say that without fully understanding the underlying cause. If it is a lack of hydraulic pressure on a clutch or band in the transmission, and that clutch or band is slipping because the line pressure is low, then yes, it could be causing premature wear.
If the clutch or band is not actuating at all because of a fault in the valving (or the logic controlling the valving) preventing the clutch or band from being actuated in the first place, then no, there isn't a wear problem.
It is impossible to troubleshoot this over the Internet, and far better mechanics are working to find the root cause of this issue for Toyota. It has obviously got enough press and attention at this point to force Toyota to find a root cause and solve the problem.
If the clutch or band is not actuating at all because of a fault in the valving (or the logic controlling the valving) preventing the clutch or band from being actuated in the first place, then no, there isn't a wear problem.
It is impossible to troubleshoot this over the Internet, and far better mechanics are working to find the root cause of this issue for Toyota. It has obviously got enough press and attention at this point to force Toyota to find a root cause and solve the problem.
Instead in my case, it revs free like it's in Neutral when 3rd gear lets go, then with the same feeling as a manual clutch slowly engaging with increasing friction over about 1 second's time, it "slides" into 4th gear.
It's that feeling of friction that makes me think repeated shifts like this will cause added wear. Which is why I use my own technique to get past that first 3rd-4th shift without the "flare".
01-06-07, 06:42 PM
#47
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I just read through all the TSBs at TIS. Toyota are convinced the problem lies in the valvebody. They also clearly state the problem only exists during the first 10 minutes of operation (meaning when the fluid is not up to temperature.) Lastly, they say the TSB is not to be done to any car unless the flaring condition is validated, and if the condition persists after changing the valvebody, contact Toyota Technical assistance.
Does the problem only manifest itself on cold cycle?
Have both of these vehicles had the valvebody replaced?
Does the issue persist after the TSB?
A couple of interesting notes. There are seven solenoid valves in the U660E (Camry, ES350); there are nine in the A760E (IS350). All but one of the U660E's solenoid valves are the multipassage/multiposition type. Only four of them are found on the A760E, the rest are a single plunger/two position design. The two transmissions share nothing except 6 forward speeds. The multipassage valve type is very similar to the valves used for VVTi control. Without being able to see them up close and personal, it is impossible to say if they could be the culprits here. There are millions of engines using similar valves for VVTi around the globe, but it's still possible the valves themselves could be the root cause.
From the descriptions of the failures, it really sounds like a mechanical problem with the valving or a logic problem with the valve control. For example, the ECM is waiting for a data value that either arrives too late, or doesn't arrive at all. Lots of possibilities, but one thing is for sure, there are many of these units in service, and not all are having issues.
I found nothing about snap rings or any other mechanical defects mentioned on TIS. I had previously read something about an improper snap ring installation, but if this is true, there is nothing on TIS about it.
No doubt this is a very tender subject at Toyota. Nobody I know wants to talk about it. I wouldn't call this quite in the same league as spinning a rod bearing (which another luxury manufacturer suffered fairly recently with a newly released engine), but it definitely presents a serious issue for the owners. Sorry I can't be of more help.
Does the problem only manifest itself on cold cycle?
Have both of these vehicles had the valvebody replaced?
Does the issue persist after the TSB?
A couple of interesting notes. There are seven solenoid valves in the U660E (Camry, ES350); there are nine in the A760E (IS350). All but one of the U660E's solenoid valves are the multipassage/multiposition type. Only four of them are found on the A760E, the rest are a single plunger/two position design. The two transmissions share nothing except 6 forward speeds. The multipassage valve type is very similar to the valves used for VVTi control. Without being able to see them up close and personal, it is impossible to say if they could be the culprits here. There are millions of engines using similar valves for VVTi around the globe, but it's still possible the valves themselves could be the root cause.
From the descriptions of the failures, it really sounds like a mechanical problem with the valving or a logic problem with the valve control. For example, the ECM is waiting for a data value that either arrives too late, or doesn't arrive at all. Lots of possibilities, but one thing is for sure, there are many of these units in service, and not all are having issues.
I found nothing about snap rings or any other mechanical defects mentioned on TIS. I had previously read something about an improper snap ring installation, but if this is true, there is nothing on TIS about it.
No doubt this is a very tender subject at Toyota. Nobody I know wants to talk about it. I wouldn't call this quite in the same league as spinning a rod bearing (which another luxury manufacturer suffered fairly recently with a newly released engine), but it definitely presents a serious issue for the owners. Sorry I can't be of more help.
01-06-07, 07:16 PM
#48
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I just read through all the TSBs at TIS. Toyota are convinced the problem lies in the valvebody. They also clearly state the problem only exists during the first 10 minutes of operation (meaning when the fluid is not up to temperature.) Lastly, they say the TSB is not to be done to any car unless the flaring condition is validated, and if the condition persists after changing the valvebody, contact Toyota Technical assistance.
Does the problem only manifest itself on cold cycle?
Have both of these vehicles had the valvebody replaced?
Does the issue persist after the TSB?
<snip>
Does the problem only manifest itself on cold cycle?
Have both of these vehicles had the valvebody replaced?
Does the issue persist after the TSB?
<snip>
It doesn't matter how long I let my car sit after starting in order to warm up, or if I go soon after starting the engine. (I always let an engine run for at least 10-20 seconds to make sure the oil pressure is up everywhere)
I've even stopped immediately after the first 3rd-4th shift, then restarted, and it never does it again until after the car has been shut off and allowed to sit for awhile.
So if it's JUST a cold issue, why wouldn't it still do it again within seconds after having done it previously? (I do think temperature is A factor though)
It just seems with mine, that the common denominator is always getting past the first 3rd-4th shift. Then everything's OK.
I reported it to my dealer's Service Department, and the guy I talked to told me that revving up and slipping between 3rd and 4th gear was "normal". He told me my transmission is "learning". He did say if I "insist", he'd let me go for a ride with a tech to check it out, but that these transmissions just "shift funny" and everybody thinks there's something wrong, when actually there's nothing wrong.
I'm holding off on pushing things, because I've not yet heard of anybody who had the valve body replacement who ever had a longterm fix. It usually made it worse. Then they'd get a new transmission, and the problem would either still be there, or would come back in time.
When I actually hear about people actually getting the problem fixed long term, I'll take it in and push the issue more.
I've been trying to buy time by taking it up to 3rd in manual, then letting off the gas and simultaneously shifting to 4th (much like I'd do if I was using a manual tranny) at about 2200-2500RPM.
It misses the flare, and my transmission hasn't gotten any worse since it started at about 1200 miles. (I now have about 3300 miles on the car)
01-06-07, 08:39 PM
#49
I just read through all the TSBs at TIS. Toyota are convinced the problem lies in the valvebody. They also clearly state the problem only exists during the first 10 minutes of operation (meaning when the fluid is not up to temperature.) Lastly, they say the TSB is not to be done to any car unless the flaring condition is validated, and if the condition persists after changing the valvebody, contact Toyota Technical assistance.
Does the problem only manifest itself on cold cycle?
Have both of these vehicles had the valvebody replaced?
Does the issue persist after the TSB?
A couple of interesting notes. There are seven solenoid valves in the U660E (Camry, ES350); there are nine in the A760E (IS350). All but one of the U660E's solenoid valves are the multipassage/multiposition type. Only four of them are found on the A760E, the rest are a single plunger/two position design. The two transmissions share nothing except 6 forward speeds. The multipassage valve type is very similar to the valves used for VVTi control. Without being able to see them up close and personal, it is impossible to say if they could be the culprits here. There are millions of engines using similar valves for VVTi around the globe, but it's still possible the valves themselves could be the root cause.
From the descriptions of the failures, it really sounds like a mechanical problem with the valving or a logic problem with the valve control. For example, the ECM is waiting for a data value that either arrives too late, or doesn't arrive at all. Lots of possibilities, but one thing is for sure, there are many of these units in service, and not all are having issues.
I found nothing about snap rings or any other mechanical defects mentioned on TIS. I had previously read something about an improper snap ring installation, but if this is true, there is nothing on TIS about it.
No doubt this is a very tender subject at Toyota. Nobody I know wants to talk about it. I wouldn't call this quite in the same league as spinning a rod bearing (which another luxury manufacturer suffered fairly recently with a newly released engine), but it definitely presents a serious issue for the owners. Sorry I can't be of more help.
Does the problem only manifest itself on cold cycle?
Have both of these vehicles had the valvebody replaced?
Does the issue persist after the TSB?
A couple of interesting notes. There are seven solenoid valves in the U660E (Camry, ES350); there are nine in the A760E (IS350). All but one of the U660E's solenoid valves are the multipassage/multiposition type. Only four of them are found on the A760E, the rest are a single plunger/two position design. The two transmissions share nothing except 6 forward speeds. The multipassage valve type is very similar to the valves used for VVTi control. Without being able to see them up close and personal, it is impossible to say if they could be the culprits here. There are millions of engines using similar valves for VVTi around the globe, but it's still possible the valves themselves could be the root cause.
From the descriptions of the failures, it really sounds like a mechanical problem with the valving or a logic problem with the valve control. For example, the ECM is waiting for a data value that either arrives too late, or doesn't arrive at all. Lots of possibilities, but one thing is for sure, there are many of these units in service, and not all are having issues.
I found nothing about snap rings or any other mechanical defects mentioned on TIS. I had previously read something about an improper snap ring installation, but if this is true, there is nothing on TIS about it.
No doubt this is a very tender subject at Toyota. Nobody I know wants to talk about it. I wouldn't call this quite in the same league as spinning a rod bearing (which another luxury manufacturer suffered fairly recently with a newly released engine), but it definitely presents a serious issue for the owners. Sorry I can't be of more help.
Original trans - slipped 3rd-4th when cold every time, or after left for 4+hrs. Also large slip\slam changes for 1-2 and 2-3 when 'hot' occasionally when in stop\start traffic.
Original trans with valvebody replaced (TSIB installed) - slipped 3rd-4th much worse than original trans, including doing it when hot. 2-3 and 4-5 changes also when hot. At one point it actually went 2-3, 3-4 and 4-5 slipping around 1000rpm at each gear change while driving.
Second trans - slips 3rd-4th when cold. Also has the 2-3rd when hot slip as well.
mrshyvley - I hate it when they tell you the trans is learning when it clearly has a problem.
01-06-07, 09:12 PM
#50
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Lobuxracer - thanks for this detailed analysis of the issue. Although the TSIB is only for the 'cold' condition I can report that it can also happen when 'hot' affecting other gears.
Original trans - slipped 3rd-4th when cold every time, or after left for 4+hrs. Also large slip\slam changes for 1-2 and 2-3 when 'hot' occasionally when in stop\start traffic.
Original trans with valvebody replaced (TSIB installed) - slipped 3rd-4th much worse than original trans, including doing it when hot. 2-3 and 4-5 changes also when hot. At one point it actually went 2-3, 3-4 and 4-5 slipping around 1000rpm at each gear change while driving.
Second trans - slips 3rd-4th when cold. Also has the 2-3rd when hot slip as well.
mrshyvley - I hate it when they tell you the trans is learning when it clearly has a problem.
Original trans - slipped 3rd-4th when cold every time, or after left for 4+hrs. Also large slip\slam changes for 1-2 and 2-3 when 'hot' occasionally when in stop\start traffic.
Original trans with valvebody replaced (TSIB installed) - slipped 3rd-4th much worse than original trans, including doing it when hot. 2-3 and 4-5 changes also when hot. At one point it actually went 2-3, 3-4 and 4-5 slipping around 1000rpm at each gear change while driving.
Second trans - slips 3rd-4th when cold. Also has the 2-3rd when hot slip as well.
mrshyvley - I hate it when they tell you the trans is learning when it clearly has a problem.
Yours is just one more case in point of why I'm waiting to take mine in and push for a fix, until Toyota has an answer, or my car gets worse and I have no choice.
As to the individual in my dealer's Service Department telling me it's just "learning", I do consider it an insult to my intelligence. Especially when I could tell by his demeanor during our conversation that he didn't really believe what he was telling me was the truth.
01-07-07, 05:41 AM
#51
Lexus Champion
You cannot have 2 to 3 slip when accelerating having pulled out into or cross traffic, it is a disaster waiting to happen. This is what I reported to Lexus several times, mentioned above, as well as the same concern expressed to them of 3 to 4.
I was told it was learning by corporate Lexus Tech even though service department was ready to attempt repair, repair work denied. Needless to say I was shocked over nothing being done and me being stuck in that car as is.
01-07-07, 05:08 PM
#52
Tech Info Resource
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So the next question is, how long is the learning process? Why do I have an F student in my car?
According to the TSB, you drive below 15% throttle until the shift shock subsides, then drive over 25% throttle until the shift shock subsides, and you're done with the learning process. They've also got codes to enter using the intelligent tester to speed up the learning process.
According to the TSB, you drive below 15% throttle until the shift shock subsides, then drive over 25% throttle until the shift shock subsides, and you're done with the learning process. They've also got codes to enter using the intelligent tester to speed up the learning process.
01-07-07, 05:17 PM
#53
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I just read through all the TSBs at TIS. Toyota are convinced the problem lies in the valvebody. They also clearly state the problem only exists during the first 10 minutes of operation (meaning when the fluid is not up to temperature.) Lastly, they say the TSB is not to be done to any car unless the flaring condition is validated, and if the condition persists after changing the valvebody, contact Toyota Technical assistance.
Does the problem only manifest itself on cold cycle?
Have both of these vehicles had the valvebody replaced?
Does the issue persist after the TSB?
A couple of interesting notes. There are seven solenoid valves in the U660E (Camry, ES350); there are nine in the A760E (IS350). All but one of the U660E's solenoid valves are the multipassage/multiposition type. Only four of them are found on the A760E, the rest are a single plunger/two position design. The two transmissions share nothing except 6 forward speeds. The multipassage valve type is very similar to the valves used for VVTi control. Without being able to see them up close and personal, it is impossible to say if they could be the culprits here. There are millions of engines using similar valves for VVTi around the globe, but it's still possible the valves themselves could be the root cause.
From the descriptions of the failures, it really sounds like a mechanical problem with the valving or a logic problem with the valve control. For example, the ECM is waiting for a data value that either arrives too late, or doesn't arrive at all. Lots of possibilities, but one thing is for sure, there are many of these units in service, and not all are having issues.
I found nothing about snap rings or any other mechanical defects mentioned on TIS. I had previously read something about an improper snap ring installation, but if this is true, there is nothing on TIS about it.
No doubt this is a very tender subject at Toyota. Nobody I know wants to talk about it. I wouldn't call this quite in the same league as spinning a rod bearing (which another luxury manufacturer suffered fairly recently with a newly released engine), but it definitely presents a serious issue for the owners. Sorry I can't be of more help.
Does the problem only manifest itself on cold cycle?
Have both of these vehicles had the valvebody replaced?
Does the issue persist after the TSB?
A couple of interesting notes. There are seven solenoid valves in the U660E (Camry, ES350); there are nine in the A760E (IS350). All but one of the U660E's solenoid valves are the multipassage/multiposition type. Only four of them are found on the A760E, the rest are a single plunger/two position design. The two transmissions share nothing except 6 forward speeds. The multipassage valve type is very similar to the valves used for VVTi control. Without being able to see them up close and personal, it is impossible to say if they could be the culprits here. There are millions of engines using similar valves for VVTi around the globe, but it's still possible the valves themselves could be the root cause.
From the descriptions of the failures, it really sounds like a mechanical problem with the valving or a logic problem with the valve control. For example, the ECM is waiting for a data value that either arrives too late, or doesn't arrive at all. Lots of possibilities, but one thing is for sure, there are many of these units in service, and not all are having issues.
I found nothing about snap rings or any other mechanical defects mentioned on TIS. I had previously read something about an improper snap ring installation, but if this is true, there is nothing on TIS about it.
No doubt this is a very tender subject at Toyota. Nobody I know wants to talk about it. I wouldn't call this quite in the same league as spinning a rod bearing (which another luxury manufacturer suffered fairly recently with a newly released engine), but it definitely presents a serious issue for the owners. Sorry I can't be of more help.
01-08-07, 04:22 AM
#54
Lexus Champion
So the next question is, how long is the learning process? Why do I have an F student in my car?
According to the TSB, you drive below 15% throttle until the shift shock subsides, then drive over 25% throttle until the shift shock subsides, and you're done with the learning process. They've also got codes to enter using the intelligent tester to speed up the learning process.
According to the TSB, you drive below 15% throttle until the shift shock subsides, then drive over 25% throttle until the shift shock subsides, and you're done with the learning process. They've also got codes to enter using the intelligent tester to speed up the learning process.
The wind noise and engine knocking is not a potential danger so the canned responses can do no harm it seems, but telling people a transmission is learning when it is slipping and leaving them in the car with that issue unresolved is a whole other matter.
01-08-07, 08:48 AM
#55
Tech Info Resource
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I would seriously ask why I have an F student installed in my car and see what the real response is.
01-08-07, 01:30 PM
#56
Lexus Champion
Given the volume of them with this issue, and reports to the feds like this thread is about, maybe there will be less people stuck with a car that is doing it.
01-08-07, 01:52 PM
#57
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Man this is crazy.
Honda must have passed on the "bad tranny karma" to Toyota, because now Toyota trannys are having problems just as Honda has finished fixing all of theirs. Who's next? I bet Toyota will pass the bad tranny karma on to Nissan next, who to date has had pretty decent tranny reliability. So I bet it's a matter of 3-4 years before all those Nissan CVTs are blowing up. After that it'll be Honda's turn again.
Honda must have passed on the "bad tranny karma" to Toyota, because now Toyota trannys are having problems just as Honda has finished fixing all of theirs. Who's next? I bet Toyota will pass the bad tranny karma on to Nissan next, who to date has had pretty decent tranny reliability. So I bet it's a matter of 3-4 years before all those Nissan CVTs are blowing up. After that it'll be Honda's turn again.
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