Toyota 'Quietly' Settles Class-Action Lawsuit Re Engine Oil Sludge; 3+ Million @ Risk
01-11-07, 06:56 AM
#46
my moms 2001 avalon didnt have any problems
when they are charging the customer the disposal fee, how are they losing money from having to dispose it
More than just profit is involved. It costs a shop bucks.....sometimes big bucks......to dispose of used oil and filters per State and EPA regulations. The more oil they change, the more they have to buy in bulk, and the higher their disposal costs will be. Sometimes used engine oil can be converted to heating oil...but it still costs a lot to do so...it has to be cleaned and re-refined.
01-11-07, 07:07 AM
#47
Lexus Champion
I won't say it was a big fight but it was an inconvenience to me to try to sort it out at that time.
They at not time made me aware of the extended coverage to repair oil gell damage, just as the class action claims, so that part is true in my experiences as stated in the action.
01-11-07, 08:38 AM
#48
Lexus Fanatic
They are not necessarily losing money, but obviously it cuts into their profits. And sometimes competitive pressure with other local shops forces them from even charging the fee at all.
01-11-07, 11:29 PM
#49
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Then why exactly did they have this suit? Toyota already extended the warranty on these cars - my understanding is that anyone who was denied a claim by Toyota can now take their case before binding arbitration.
01-12-07, 09:37 AM
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My wife have a 99 RX300 and CEL is came on a couple of days ago. We got the Notice a few weeks ago. She brought into Lexus dealership and they said that it is not due to the sludge problem, and it is expired so it wont be cover.
The vehicle currently has 150K miles. Will Lexus reimburse for any related expense? How should i proceed?
Thanks!
The vehicle currently has 150K miles. Will Lexus reimburse for any related expense? How should i proceed?
Thanks!
01-12-07, 11:26 AM
#53
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My wife have a 99 RX300 and CEL is came on a couple of days ago. We got the Notice a few weeks ago. She brought into Lexus dealership and they said that it is not due to the sludge problem, and it is expired so it wont be cover.
The vehicle currently has 150K miles. Will Lexus reimburse for any related expense? How should i proceed?
Thanks!
The vehicle currently has 150K miles. Will Lexus reimburse for any related expense? How should i proceed?
Thanks!
01-12-07, 07:32 PM
#55
I think it is safe to say that after 8 years and 150,000 miles, your RX is out of "normal" warranty :-).
01-12-07, 07:39 PM
#56
I still think that engine should last longer between oil changes, but at the same time you should follow your warranty, whatever it is.
Newest Toyota models in Europe are now seeing extended oil change intervals, up to 20,000 miles. Keep in mind that they are using much more expensive long life synthetic oil... Our standard interval is 10,000 miles.
01-27-07, 11:33 AM
#57
Oil Changes - Synthetic Oil
Since this is a pet peeve of mine over the last 40yrs (ME with a major oil company) I have researched many brands of oil’s for our company’s field equipment. While dealing with the major company’s lubrication engineers I have inquired as to the makeup and change time of the oils. I have learned that the auto manufactures do recommend 3000 to 6000 miles between oil changes depending on road and dirt conditions and the quality of oil the mineral oil. If you run on a highway and don’t encounter much dust and dirt you can go 6000 miles with no problem. I you are on a dirt road in the back country you will need to change oil at 3000 miles. This assumes you are using a decent quality filter. A major key is to keep your air filter clean. I have purchased an air filter upgrade to my GS400 with a KN type which has a lot of air flow capacity with low micron dirt removal. It is cleanable.
I got out of the cycle of changing oil every 3-6k by going with synthetic oil; I personally like Mobil-1, 10w-30, for use here in Houston, you will need 5w if you are in cold country. In 1975 I started using this oil after talking to the Mobil Lube engineers who came to our company of field equipment business. They told me the tests in the factory on this oil are much more demanding than advertised.
I started with my new Olds Cutlass and ran 150k miles with no needed engine repair. It would burn about ½ qt in one year (15k miles) between oil changes. I never had to add oil. In 1975 Mobil was recommending you could go 25k miles or one year which ever came first. I presently have a 99’ Lexus and a 94’ Camry bought new and change oil every May, before the summer. We run about 10k yearly on the Camry and 15-20k on the Lexus. I use a high quality filter costing about $10 each for the year. I frequently look at the oil for color and it stays quite clean, note that dark oil does not mean it needs to be changed, but I don’t like to leave it dark to long, maybe a few months. It would be unwise to put synthetic oil in an older dirty engine which was not clean, as the oil has a high detergency additive to keep your engine clean. So on a dirty engine it would break loose the sludge and could foul your filter and oil galleries, if you are changing your oil every 3k-6k then is should be ok to start syntheic, but I would watch is closely and change it more often the first year while using a high capacity oil filter. If your engine is worn and burns/leaks oil, it becomes too expensive to run a synthetic oil.
Also you have to run a new engine at least 5k on normal oil to get rings to seat as the synthetic oil may not allow your rings to seat, slick. I had a fellow engineer put it in his new truck and it burned oil until he changed it back to get the rings to seat. I am saving my time and money using synethic oil. Most people I know don’t do a good job keeping up with oil changes and run the oil longer than they should, so going a year with synthetic oil solved my proplem. I believe all of the major oil companies have good synetich oil, but mine still is Mobil. I am also convinced that I saved two engines which ran out of cooling water, and not knowing it I ran the engine until it started overheating with pinging. (water leak developed and drained all of the water out – no steaming). Both instances I did not ruin the bearings. Synthetic oil is very good for higher temperatures as it won’t degrade as fast, it won’t oxidize and sludge as a mineral based oil. Good Luck
I got out of the cycle of changing oil every 3-6k by going with synthetic oil; I personally like Mobil-1, 10w-30, for use here in Houston, you will need 5w if you are in cold country. In 1975 I started using this oil after talking to the Mobil Lube engineers who came to our company of field equipment business. They told me the tests in the factory on this oil are much more demanding than advertised.
I started with my new Olds Cutlass and ran 150k miles with no needed engine repair. It would burn about ½ qt in one year (15k miles) between oil changes. I never had to add oil. In 1975 Mobil was recommending you could go 25k miles or one year which ever came first. I presently have a 99’ Lexus and a 94’ Camry bought new and change oil every May, before the summer. We run about 10k yearly on the Camry and 15-20k on the Lexus. I use a high quality filter costing about $10 each for the year. I frequently look at the oil for color and it stays quite clean, note that dark oil does not mean it needs to be changed, but I don’t like to leave it dark to long, maybe a few months. It would be unwise to put synthetic oil in an older dirty engine which was not clean, as the oil has a high detergency additive to keep your engine clean. So on a dirty engine it would break loose the sludge and could foul your filter and oil galleries, if you are changing your oil every 3k-6k then is should be ok to start syntheic, but I would watch is closely and change it more often the first year while using a high capacity oil filter. If your engine is worn and burns/leaks oil, it becomes too expensive to run a synthetic oil.
Also you have to run a new engine at least 5k on normal oil to get rings to seat as the synthetic oil may not allow your rings to seat, slick. I had a fellow engineer put it in his new truck and it burned oil until he changed it back to get the rings to seat. I am saving my time and money using synethic oil. Most people I know don’t do a good job keeping up with oil changes and run the oil longer than they should, so going a year with synthetic oil solved my proplem. I believe all of the major oil companies have good synetich oil, but mine still is Mobil. I am also convinced that I saved two engines which ran out of cooling water, and not knowing it I ran the engine until it started overheating with pinging. (water leak developed and drained all of the water out – no steaming). Both instances I did not ruin the bearings. Synthetic oil is very good for higher temperatures as it won’t degrade as fast, it won’t oxidize and sludge as a mineral based oil. Good Luck
02-07-07, 11:02 AM
#58
Super Moderator
Toyota Engine Sludge Settlement May Eventually Run Into The Billions
Sludge smudges Toyota
Engine problem is latest issue to dent automaker's reputation
Christine Tierney / The Detroit News
Jeff Meckstroth's dispute with Toyota Motor Corp. might have ended quietly on March 1, 2001, when an arbitration panel unanimously agreed that Toyota was liable for the damage to the engine of his 2-year-old $37,000 Lexus RX300 sport utility vehicle.
Instead, it escalated. As the two Toyota representatives packed up their papers, they referred casually to other, similar cases they were handling. "Then we had our suspicions up that this isn't an unusual case, that Lexus knows about the problem, and has formed a response -- just deny, deny, deny," said Meckstroth, a 47-year-old New Orleans stockbroker. "We decided to sue."
His case mushroomed into a class-action suit representing prior and current owners of nearly 4 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles that may have suffered engine damage due to thickening oil, or sludge. It can accumulate and deprive the engine of necessary lubrication.
Toyota agreed last fall to settle the case but maintains that its engines were not defective. It said the settlement terms mirror a program to reimburse customers for sludge-related engine damage or repairs that it put in place in 2002. A Louisiana state court is expected to approve the settlement this week after a hearing today.
With engine replacements costing as much as $10,000, the final tab could run into the billions. But the damage to Toyota's reputation might be even more costly for the Japanese automaker.
Toyota is not the only automaker that has received complaints from consumers whose engines are damaged by sludge -- and the source of the problem and who bears responsibility are disputed issues.
But the high-profile case is the latest in a series of recalls and other signs suggesting that the Japanese automaker's quality controls aren't foolproof.
"It would be accurate to say that there have been enough issues with Toyota in the past couple of years that they don't have the spotless image they had a couple of years ago," said Karl Brauer, editor in chief of Edmunds.com, an automotive research Web site.
But he adds that problems at Toyota attract a disproportionate amount of attention because of the automaker's sterling reputation for quality. "Most companies wouldn't get noticed for these problems."
Further complicating matters, sludge issues aren't clear-cut. Excessive heat, sediment, poor oil condition or a combination of those factors may thicken the oil. In engines with very narrow passages, small amounts of sludge may get stuck, causing damage.
DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler Group and Volkswagen AG are among the automakers that have faced complaints about engine sludge in their vehicles.
"There are reasons to believe that the engine design could be contributing to it, but there are also reasons to think that lack of maintenance or proper customer care is contributing," Brauer said. "Everything I've read indicates something kind of in between."
Gary Gambel, an attorney at Murphy, Rogers, Sloss & Gambel in New Orleans, argued that Toyota's engines had a defect giving them a propensity to develop sludge.
But "the terms of the settlement and the settlement itself have no finding of defect in the product," Toyota spokesman Xavier Dominicis said. "They're not saying these engines are predisposed to sludge."
The settlement covers certain model years between 1997 and 2002 for the Toyota Camry, Solara, Avalon, Celica, and Lexus ES300 cars, and the RX300 and Highlander SUVs. The settlement amount "is tailored to what your damages are," Gambel said.
Toyota does not expect the rate at which customers are coming in for engine repairs in those vehicles or for compensation to change as a result of the settlement, Dominicis said.
Toyota remains among the quality leaders by any measure, but some question whether it can continue to grow rapidly and maintain top standards. Its sales targets suggest Toyota may overtake General Motors Corp. to become the world's No. 1 automaker this year.
In a recent interview, Yuki Funo, Toyota's highest-level U.S. Toyota executive, said he thought Toyota had "come through the worst period."
He noted that the company's U.S. recalls were lower last year than in 2005. "We are on the right track to get our arms around this issue, and I think we should see better signs in the future," Funo said.
Most experts say it takes years for brands to lose -- and restore -- their reputations.
"The sludge issue was a significant blow," said Art Spinella, president of CNW Marketing Research Inc. in Bandon, Ore. "Toyota's in the position that GM was in back in the 1970s. A lot of people were buying GM products in the '70s because they were GM products, but they had fractures at the edges. It took 15 years before GM started to suffer from that long-term negative word-of-mouth."
At Toyota, he said, "it's going to hurt them if they don't turn it around."
Engine problem is latest issue to dent automaker's reputation
Christine Tierney / The Detroit News
Jeff Meckstroth's dispute with Toyota Motor Corp. might have ended quietly on March 1, 2001, when an arbitration panel unanimously agreed that Toyota was liable for the damage to the engine of his 2-year-old $37,000 Lexus RX300 sport utility vehicle.
Instead, it escalated. As the two Toyota representatives packed up their papers, they referred casually to other, similar cases they were handling. "Then we had our suspicions up that this isn't an unusual case, that Lexus knows about the problem, and has formed a response -- just deny, deny, deny," said Meckstroth, a 47-year-old New Orleans stockbroker. "We decided to sue."
His case mushroomed into a class-action suit representing prior and current owners of nearly 4 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles that may have suffered engine damage due to thickening oil, or sludge. It can accumulate and deprive the engine of necessary lubrication.
Toyota agreed last fall to settle the case but maintains that its engines were not defective. It said the settlement terms mirror a program to reimburse customers for sludge-related engine damage or repairs that it put in place in 2002. A Louisiana state court is expected to approve the settlement this week after a hearing today.
With engine replacements costing as much as $10,000, the final tab could run into the billions. But the damage to Toyota's reputation might be even more costly for the Japanese automaker.
Toyota is not the only automaker that has received complaints from consumers whose engines are damaged by sludge -- and the source of the problem and who bears responsibility are disputed issues.
But the high-profile case is the latest in a series of recalls and other signs suggesting that the Japanese automaker's quality controls aren't foolproof.
"It would be accurate to say that there have been enough issues with Toyota in the past couple of years that they don't have the spotless image they had a couple of years ago," said Karl Brauer, editor in chief of Edmunds.com, an automotive research Web site.
But he adds that problems at Toyota attract a disproportionate amount of attention because of the automaker's sterling reputation for quality. "Most companies wouldn't get noticed for these problems."
Further complicating matters, sludge issues aren't clear-cut. Excessive heat, sediment, poor oil condition or a combination of those factors may thicken the oil. In engines with very narrow passages, small amounts of sludge may get stuck, causing damage.
DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler Group and Volkswagen AG are among the automakers that have faced complaints about engine sludge in their vehicles.
"There are reasons to believe that the engine design could be contributing to it, but there are also reasons to think that lack of maintenance or proper customer care is contributing," Brauer said. "Everything I've read indicates something kind of in between."
Gary Gambel, an attorney at Murphy, Rogers, Sloss & Gambel in New Orleans, argued that Toyota's engines had a defect giving them a propensity to develop sludge.
But "the terms of the settlement and the settlement itself have no finding of defect in the product," Toyota spokesman Xavier Dominicis said. "They're not saying these engines are predisposed to sludge."
The settlement covers certain model years between 1997 and 2002 for the Toyota Camry, Solara, Avalon, Celica, and Lexus ES300 cars, and the RX300 and Highlander SUVs. The settlement amount "is tailored to what your damages are," Gambel said.
Toyota does not expect the rate at which customers are coming in for engine repairs in those vehicles or for compensation to change as a result of the settlement, Dominicis said.
Toyota remains among the quality leaders by any measure, but some question whether it can continue to grow rapidly and maintain top standards. Its sales targets suggest Toyota may overtake General Motors Corp. to become the world's No. 1 automaker this year.
In a recent interview, Yuki Funo, Toyota's highest-level U.S. Toyota executive, said he thought Toyota had "come through the worst period."
He noted that the company's U.S. recalls were lower last year than in 2005. "We are on the right track to get our arms around this issue, and I think we should see better signs in the future," Funo said.
Most experts say it takes years for brands to lose -- and restore -- their reputations.
"The sludge issue was a significant blow," said Art Spinella, president of CNW Marketing Research Inc. in Bandon, Ore. "Toyota's in the position that GM was in back in the 1970s. A lot of people were buying GM products in the '70s because they were GM products, but they had fractures at the edges. It took 15 years before GM started to suffer from that long-term negative word-of-mouth."
At Toyota, he said, "it's going to hurt them if they don't turn it around."
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