LexFather

Incorrect.
1IS beat 3 in R&T
2 GS beat 5 in M&T
2LS beat 7 in C&D
3LS beat 7 in C&D
3 GS beat the 530 in C&D
Now R&T picks the 2IS over the 2007 G35.

This is what I am saying. Those that just think Lexus are sofas, need to wake up. BOTH make sporty cars. Infiniti I will give the sporty edge as the G35/M35/45 AND FX 35/45 are all built off the 350Z platform. They BETTER be more sporty! However, the IS and GS are no SLOUCHES when pushed either.
Now with the IS-F, Infintii has no competitor to M/AMG/RS while Lexus does.

Again, the Infiniti=Japanese BMW and Lexus=Japanese Benz GARBAGE needs to end as the lines are blurry. The QX56 is like a Benz GL.

Lexus has been so incredible they have 2 DISTINCT lineups of sedans to attack BMW and BENZ. The sportier IS and GS and the less sporty ES and LS.

No OTHER car maker does that. It is different and it is working.

RON430

Hey 1Sick, I don't have any of the mags handy but haven't two of the mags done S6, E65, and M5 comparos in the last issue or two and the M5 didn't win either? I think it even came in last in one of them. Not saying BMW doesn't have problems, boy do they have problems, but whatever the basic approach that BMW uses is, it is squarely aimed at their definition of sport sedan across the board. And no one competes across the board with that underlying motivation.

I still think Infiniti may be the most dangerous potential out there. Not saying Lexus, MB, Audi, Jag, Acura, Hyundai, or Kia might not crack out one model that would be a strong competitor but over the whole range, no one seems to be as potentially dangerous as Infiniti. I think the bimmer guy got it right.

Shawnmack

Don't get me wrong I've always slept on Lexus And now I love the direction they're going but that new g35 is the closes car the 335 as far as ride balance and luxury features that compares to the 3 and in the 6/05 R&T the M45 beats GS 430 in everything but ride and ext styling.

mmarshall

I'm really surprised the BMW guy is not more concerned about Audi than Infiniti. Audi, being German, and having a line of Quattro AWD and high-performance S products that compete very well with the BMW M cars, would appear to me to be more of a threat to BMW. Audi's only real problem is that is doesn't have the reliability of the Infiniti G's and M's.

DASHOCKER

iTrader: (2)

Audi still has to work on their suspension dynamics imo. Body roll is a problem especially with the A6. BMW has no problem in that department

diablo1

He didn't say he's more concerned about Infiniti than Audi, he just said he's more concerned about Infiniti than Lexus, right? He could still be more concerned about Audi than about either Japanese competitor...

Plus Audi is more of a known quantity. They've been around and doing the same thing for a while now, and don't have numbers anywhere close to BMW (at least in the US, not sure about elsewhere). The Japanese cars maybe are more of a rising threat.

LexFather

BMW has this "misguided" image of superiority. BEFORE, no doubt, BMW could not be beat. The 1990s-early 2000 cars just SLAUGHTERED any competitor in class. Beginning with the Bangle design era, BMWs "automatic" victory is far from automatic. Porsche whoops BMW every single time and when the Panamera comes, it will be M5 who? Overall, BMW as a BRAND is the SPORTIEST and they do offer THE MOST MANUALS. However, read the results below.

Outside the 3, uneasy lies the throne
EVO, Quattroporte over CLS and M5
C&D, M5 last vs E63 and S6
C&D, RL, M45 and GS 430 over 530
C&D M45 over 550, GS 450h
EVO, 911 S over M6
EVO, Sports car International and every mag known to man, Boxster over Z4
EVO, 911 base model over M3 CSL (which we do not get)
CAR, 530 over GS 300 and CLS 350 (we don't get that here)
C&D, S550 over A8 and 7 series and LS 460
EVO, M3 over RS4 and C55
C&D 650 4th out of 5, loses to Jag KX, 911 and Benz SL 550
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...-currency.html

I will be happy to provide links if people don't believe me. It would just take me a little time. These are off the top of my head.

Understand, in no way in HELL I am saying BMW is bad. Not at all I have a huge deal of respect for the brand. What I am saying is outside the 3 SERIES, the past few years, the #1 rating BMW always got with the PREVIOUS models, no longer is an automatic thing.

doug_999

Well Mike, not to put the "people don't care what mags say" hat on (cause I believe they do) but....
In most of those competitions, sans the 7 and 6 series, I believe BMW holds the sales lead on a consistent basis. So I think they are delivering the product that people want - even if it does not always win the comparo.

marshmallo

I think the M45 caught EVERYBODY by surprise because of how
scarily good it was (in terms of sport).

There is no doubt the M really hurt Lexus GS sales and is probably
the kind of car neither BMW nor Lexus wants to see coming out
of Infiniti...

CarlZ06

They may have gotten pick because it is faster. But it doesn't handle near as good as the G35 or a BMW. The G35 got better handling numbers. The G35 has been the only car in its class to get close enough to BMW handling to take over BMW.

mmarshall

EXACTLY.

In fact, Mike, I wish that more Lexuses WERE like sofas. Although the new LS460 is still quite comfortable, most of the rest of the Lexus pasenger-car-line, especially the new ES350, have been noticiably stiffened in an effort to compete with BMW ( The IS, of course, was always a little on the stiff side ) . And, for sports enthusiasts, of course, that is not a bad thing. And I agree that Lexus SHOULD have a comfort branch for people who like easy-riders AND a sporting branch for those who like to carve up the twisties. But, lately, like with some other manufactuerers, sport suspensions, tires, and dynamics seem to be proliferating everywhere.....and almost completely taking over even what SHOULD be left in the "comfort" column.

mavericck

If anyone has to work on their suspension dynamics, it's Lexus. I have no body roll problems on my A6 or my A4. In fact their body motions are kept very well in check. My wife's LS on the other hand....take a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVNLV_WkO68&eurl= and tell me the BMW outhandles the Audi....

mmarshall

Well, that was my point, maverick. Lexus, IMO, should produce SOME cars, for traditional ride comfort and SOME for sportiness. Only the LS remains in what I would call the comfort department. All of the others.....particularly the new ES350.....have been stiffened up in an attempt to compete across the board with BMW and Audi......and even the new LS460 is slightly ( very slightly ) less pillow-like than its predecesdsor LS430...which in turn, was slightly less pillow-like than the original LS400.

TRDFantasy

I sure hope so. One thing I will say is that back in 1989 BMW certainly was not aware of all competitive forces in the industry. I sure hope this has changed.

TRDFantasy

Yes, I am well aware of what Bob Carter said. The fact remains that Lexus *with* the F-brand competes more closely than ever with BMW (and Mercedes) than Lexus *without* the F-brand. This is nothing more than common sense.