Audi: Lexus doesn't resonate
01-24-07, 03:14 PM
#46
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Well I think I can give you an input on Euro diesel market. Majority of diesel engines sold are 4 cylinders, either by BMW, MB or Audi. And majority of those sales are in entry luxury vehicles (and below) like C-Class, 3er, A4 and mid-size like E-Class, 5er and A6.
So don't fool ourselves 4 cylinder diesels rule the market. In last few years V6 diesels gained momentum but again majority of those are small under 3 liters V6 diesels developing below 200hp like E280CDI. V8 diesels are still very, very exotic breed indeed.
Now here is the shocker: Try to spot two or three A4s or Cs with top of the line petrol V6 engine in the same day anywhere in Europe (except Frankfurt, London, Paris, MC, Milan). Good luck!!!!!
Big engines are not popular in EU, neither petrol nor diesel period. 4 cylinders or small 6 lead the market by huge margin
So don't fool ourselves 4 cylinder diesels rule the market. In last few years V6 diesels gained momentum but again majority of those are small under 3 liters V6 diesels developing below 200hp like E280CDI. V8 diesels are still very, very exotic breed indeed.
Now here is the shocker: Try to spot two or three A4s or Cs with top of the line petrol V6 engine in the same day anywhere in Europe (except Frankfurt, London, Paris, MC, Milan). Good luck!!!!!
Big engines are not popular in EU, neither petrol nor diesel period. 4 cylinders or small 6 lead the market by huge margin
01-24-07, 03:29 PM
#47
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Bottom line, this sounds like Audi when Lexus came to America in 1989 (and the rest of the Germans). When Lexus truly decides to compete in Europe, the Germans will be in true trouble.
And for the record, Lexus is the best selling luxury marque in Asia (I'll post figures tonight) and RUSSIA.
And for the record, Lexus is the best selling luxury marque in Asia (I'll post figures tonight) and RUSSIA.
01-24-07, 03:32 PM
#48
Couple of points:
My wife works for an Audi dealership as a Quality Manager - the V6 diesels are in great demand due to their power and fuel economy. They never have a problem with them.
In Europe Audi most certainly is considered of equal status to BMW and MB - yes they are front wheel drive but don't forget all models are available with Quattro 4-wheel drive - a system which is far more respected than those of BMW or MB.
MB also has the stigma of being the standard issue for taxi drivers in Europe. Step off the ferry into even the smallest Greek island and you will have a line of MB taxis queuing for your business. Personally I don't want to drive a taxi.
I still think the IS is a better looking car than the A4, 3-series and C class while the GS is better looking than the A6, 5 series and E class. (We don't get the ES in Europe as it is too obviously a Camry in a nice frock).
My wife works for an Audi dealership as a Quality Manager - the V6 diesels are in great demand due to their power and fuel economy. They never have a problem with them.
In Europe Audi most certainly is considered of equal status to BMW and MB - yes they are front wheel drive but don't forget all models are available with Quattro 4-wheel drive - a system which is far more respected than those of BMW or MB.
MB also has the stigma of being the standard issue for taxi drivers in Europe. Step off the ferry into even the smallest Greek island and you will have a line of MB taxis queuing for your business. Personally I don't want to drive a taxi.
I still think the IS is a better looking car than the A4, 3-series and C class while the GS is better looking than the A6, 5 series and E class. (We don't get the ES in Europe as it is too obviously a Camry in a nice frock).
No disrespect to your wife, but thats a lot of boloney :-).
01-24-07, 03:35 PM
#49
I asked for a reference or site, something I can see with my own eyes to verify your numbers.
nevermind I checked for myself and you are correct. Toyota is the 2nd largest auto manufacturer with around 8.8 million vehicles sold and VW as a whole is the 4th with around 5 million vehicles sold.
nevermind I checked for myself and you are correct. Toyota is the 2nd largest auto manufacturer with around 8.8 million vehicles sold and VW as a whole is the 4th with around 5 million vehicles sold.
And yes, I live in eastern europe... I like Audi's too, but again, Audi does not have brand cache of BMW or MB, and what they sell is a lot of FWD 4cly cars... There is nothing wrong with that, but it puts things into perspective.
01-24-07, 10:36 PM
#50
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I've heard multiple times that Audi > BMW > MB in Germany.
01-24-07, 10:56 PM
#51
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If they don't resonate... then why you gotta hate?
Just know that when a boxer shakes his head to signify that he's not hurt, 100% of the time he's feelin' the pain.
Seriously, does Lexus bash on other companies?
Audi, BMW... Tsk Tsk
Just know that when a boxer shakes his head to signify that he's not hurt, 100% of the time he's feelin' the pain.
Seriously, does Lexus bash on other companies?
Audi, BMW... Tsk Tsk
01-24-07, 11:39 PM
#52
This is my experience too... I was even advised (by an audi-tech.) not to buy certain v6 models...cause of the many failures theyve had with them.
01-25-07, 12:44 AM
#53
I've also asked her to check the warranty print outs for various models and recalls - again no significant difference.
I'll have my baloney sandwich with a nice bit of lettuce, mayo and a sprinkling of black pepper please.
EDIT:
I've just been thinking about this and someone mentioned that Spywolf is in Belgium? I'm sure I read somewhere that Lexus reduce the power of the IS220d in Belgium from 175bhp to under 160bhp to avoid the luxury car tax. I don't know if this applies to used cars but if there is increased taxation over 160bhp it would explain why, in that market, 110-140 bhp Audi diesels would be more popular than those in 163bhp+ bracket. Maybe someone can confirm this as obviously my comments relate to the UK market - Europe has a variety of taxation policies on cars.
Last edited by Big Andy; 01-25-07 at 02:39 AM.
01-25-07, 07:55 AM
#54
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Even in the 19*70*s Audi was a VERY respected brand. Audi 80s, 100s, etc., were EXCELLENT cars, very well respected.
One of my fondest memories with my father was him driving us around in an Audi 100 for a day when he was taking care of it for a friend. That car was awesome in its day. Quiet, powerful, refined - I was in awe of it.
Audi 100 eventually changed number to the 5000 as the flagship and then eventually the A8... they've come a long way but always stand tall in my book.
I saw an LS460 (SWB) today in a parking lot. It was dark grey and I was underwhelmed by its lack of presence. Shortly thereafter I saw the rear end of a new Camry parked someplace else and my initial reaction was "wow, another LS460 in the same day, what are the chances of that..." and then I realized "Oh, it's a Camry".
Now I do think the LWB LS460 in black or white looks hot, but still not A8 presence.
One of my fondest memories with my father was him driving us around in an Audi 100 for a day when he was taking care of it for a friend. That car was awesome in its day. Quiet, powerful, refined - I was in awe of it.
Audi 100 eventually changed number to the 5000 as the flagship and then eventually the A8... they've come a long way but always stand tall in my book.
I saw an LS460 (SWB) today in a parking lot. It was dark grey and I was underwhelmed by its lack of presence. Shortly thereafter I saw the rear end of a new Camry parked someplace else and my initial reaction was "wow, another LS460 in the same day, what are the chances of that..." and then I realized "Oh, it's a Camry".
Now I do think the LWB LS460 in black or white looks hot, but still not A8 presence.
Obviously this is all subjective. I think a regular A8 doesn't have the presence an LS460 does.. but an Audi RS8 certainly commands more of a presence.
In my mind the BMW 7 Series commands the most respect. Oh well.. subjective views at their best.
PS I wanted an AUDI TT Forever!!! But the price was just ridiculous.
01-25-07, 10:16 AM
#55
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Are they? I've just looked at the used car stocklist of 4 Audi dealerships and like for like age and mileage the 2.7TDi and 3.0Tdi models command a significant premium over the cooking 1.9 and 2.0Tdi models. If you also check Autotrader, again they command a higher price - people love them because they are capable of such high mileages.
I've also asked her to check the warranty print outs for various models and recalls - again no significant difference.
I'll have my baloney sandwich with a nice bit of lettuce, mayo and a sprinkling of black pepper please.
EDIT:
I've just been thinking about this and someone mentioned that Spywolf is in Belgium? I'm sure I read somewhere that Lexus reduce the power of the IS220d in Belgium from 175bhp to under 160bhp to avoid the luxury car tax. I don't know if this applies to used cars but if there is increased taxation over 160bhp it would explain why, in that market, 110-140 bhp Audi diesels would be more popular than those in 163bhp+ bracket. Maybe someone can confirm this as obviously my comments relate to the UK market - Europe has a variety of taxation policies on cars.
I've also asked her to check the warranty print outs for various models and recalls - again no significant difference.
I'll have my baloney sandwich with a nice bit of lettuce, mayo and a sprinkling of black pepper please.
EDIT:
I've just been thinking about this and someone mentioned that Spywolf is in Belgium? I'm sure I read somewhere that Lexus reduce the power of the IS220d in Belgium from 175bhp to under 160bhp to avoid the luxury car tax. I don't know if this applies to used cars but if there is increased taxation over 160bhp it would explain why, in that market, 110-140 bhp Audi diesels would be more popular than those in 163bhp+ bracket. Maybe someone can confirm this as obviously my comments relate to the UK market - Europe has a variety of taxation policies on cars.
01-25-07, 10:19 AM
#56
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That is the biggest flaw in European automotive industry. Taxation standards don't exist.
Some countries tax based on C02, which clearly favors diesel cars since they emit less C02 than petrol counterparts (but never the less they pollute more than petrol ones since they also emit mixture of C02 and other toxic gases that are not recognized by emission standards for some reasons).
Then you have taxation based on displacement, clearly favoring 4cyl. For example, Mitsu Evo would be cheaper to register than regular Lancer with 2.4l engine. I guess that is why they don't offer 2.4l in Europe
But that same Evo would be ridiculously expensive to register if you are doing it in some country that taxes based on HP.
I also heard that somewhere they tax based on a weight of the vehicle.
Some countries tax based on C02, which clearly favors diesel cars since they emit less C02 than petrol counterparts (but never the less they pollute more than petrol ones since they also emit mixture of C02 and other toxic gases that are not recognized by emission standards for some reasons).
Then you have taxation based on displacement, clearly favoring 4cyl. For example, Mitsu Evo would be cheaper to register than regular Lancer with 2.4l engine. I guess that is why they don't offer 2.4l in Europe
But that same Evo would be ridiculously expensive to register if you are doing it in some country that taxes based on HP.
I also heard that somewhere they tax based on a weight of the vehicle.
01-25-07, 11:53 AM
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Bottom line, this sounds like Audi when Lexus came to America in 1989 (and the rest of the Germans). When Lexus truly decides to compete in Europe, the Germans will be in true trouble.
And for the record, Lexus is the best selling luxury marque in Asia (I'll post figures tonight) and RUSSIA.
And for the record, Lexus is the best selling luxury marque in Asia (I'll post figures tonight) and RUSSIA.
OHH YEAAAAAAAAAAAA! I LOVE THIS COUNTRY.
01-25-07, 12:01 PM
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Allow me to help you out 1sicklex.
Lexus Overtakes BMW as Korea's Bestselling Imported Car
Seoul January 2, 2006; Chosun.com reported that Japan’s Toyota Lexus has shunted Germany’s BMW from its position as Korea’s most popular imported car, which BMW had held for six years since 1999.
BMW Korea and Toyota Korea figures released Monday show that Lexus outsold BMW by a narrow margin of 5,832 cars to 5,781 between January and Dec. 30 last year. Until November, BMW was ahead 5,051 to 4,922, but the Japanese car overtook its German rival in a last-minute sprint.
A Toyota staffer said the reason for the apparent surge was that the firm in October and November took orders for the new Lexus IS250, which was out of stock, and delivered over 300 of the vehicles in December.
Lexus Overtakes BMW as Korea's Bestselling Imported Car
Seoul January 2, 2006; Chosun.com reported that Japan’s Toyota Lexus has shunted Germany’s BMW from its position as Korea’s most popular imported car, which BMW had held for six years since 1999.
BMW Korea and Toyota Korea figures released Monday show that Lexus outsold BMW by a narrow margin of 5,832 cars to 5,781 between January and Dec. 30 last year. Until November, BMW was ahead 5,051 to 4,922, but the Japanese car overtook its German rival in a last-minute sprint.
A Toyota staffer said the reason for the apparent surge was that the firm in October and November took orders for the new Lexus IS250, which was out of stock, and delivered over 300 of the vehicles in December.
01-25-07, 12:17 PM
#59
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In the end though fellas numbers doesn't matter unless you're building, selling them or looking to buy their stock. Buy what speaks and inspires you and sit back cruise and enjoy, who cares about how many units are sold as long as they have one for you when your ready to buy it.
Lets discuss less of 15868, 10552 + 30% europe vs. US and more of
CL come on now. Let the board rooms discuss #'s
Lets discuss less of 15868, 10552 + 30% europe vs. US and more of
CL come on now. Let the board rooms discuss #'s
01-25-07, 03:08 PM
#60
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In Europe, if it's born, moves, is consumed, discarded, or dies, it's taxed. 