New BMW 7-series will come with 8-speed transmission
02-06-07, 10:11 AM
#46
Super Moderator
Please refrain from directing your comments towards other members personally instead of the topic of the thread, which is BMW developing an 8 speed transmission.
A reminder of forum rules :
The tests done on the LS460 are mostly preproduction models with crappy tires, which hurts braking distance, & has been discussed at length in the LS forum before. Again please stay on topic without getting personal.
A reminder of forum rules :
Members are certainly going to disagree from time-to-time, but the disagreement should be about the topic not the person posting
Last edited by Gojirra99; 02-06-07 at 10:22 AM.
02-06-07, 10:19 AM
#47
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Well besides the majority of completely off topic posts.. Because I failed to see the whole 7 Series vs LS series in the OPs title...
Go BMW! Why not follow the latest trend. It is selling cars. I think BMW just has to worry about interior build quality. I think we all have to agree they have the *fun* feature down. If car companies didn't want to be like each other, or steal each other's customers they wouldn't try and impliment other companies *ideas* and *technologies* into their current builds. Even then I am suprised they didn't go with a 9 speed. :P
Go BMW! Why not follow the latest trend. It is selling cars. I think BMW just has to worry about interior build quality. I think we all have to agree they have the *fun* feature down. If car companies didn't want to be like each other, or steal each other's customers they wouldn't try and impliment other companies *ideas* and *technologies* into their current builds. Even then I am suprised they didn't go with a 9 speed. :P
02-06-07, 10:38 AM
#48
I am going to have to agree with Hameed on the 7spd vs 8spd deal. We can say the 8spd helps with fuel economy, but by how much? The LS430 was able to acheive 18/25mpg with a 6spd. The LS460 can do 18/27mpg with an 8spd. That's only a 2mpg gain on the highway. But keep in mind that the increase in highway mileage isn't soley because of the tranmission. The LS460 is suppose to be more aerodynamic, and the engine is suppose to be more efficient than its predecessor. If it took Lexus better aerodynamics, more efficient engine, and 2 more gears just to acheive and additional 2mpg on the highway, how much of that 2 gear actually helped out with fuel economy? I'm willing to bet they could at least get the same mileage with a 7spd had they changed the gear ratio around.
I'm not quite sure I'm sold on the 8-speed deal yet. For those who drive in stop and go traffic, the tranmission will do a lot of gear hunting. When I first bought my GS400, the tranny was smooth until I exposed it to my daily drive in stop and go traffic. Now my tranny shifts with a slight jerk, despite doing tranny fluid drain/refill and adding in a tranny cooler. My old car with 4spd auto didn't have to gear hunt as much and it was smoother than my GS' tranny over its life time.
I'm not quite sure I'm sold on the 8-speed deal yet. For those who drive in stop and go traffic, the tranmission will do a lot of gear hunting. When I first bought my GS400, the tranny was smooth until I exposed it to my daily drive in stop and go traffic. Now my tranny shifts with a slight jerk, despite doing tranny fluid drain/refill and adding in a tranny cooler. My old car with 4spd auto didn't have to gear hunt as much and it was smoother than my GS' tranny over its life time.
02-06-07, 10:44 AM
#49
Super Moderator
I am going to have to agree with Hameed on the 7spd vs 8spd deal. We can say the 8spd helps with fuel economy, but by how much? The LS430 was able to acheive 18/25mpg with a 6spd. The LS460 can do 18/27mpg with an 8spd. That's only a 2mpg gain on the highway. But keep in mind that the increase in highway mileage isn't soley because of the tranmission. The LS460 is suppose to be more aerodynamic, and the engine is suppose to be more efficient than its predecessor. If it took Lexus better aerodynamics, more efficient engine,
02-06-07, 10:50 AM
#50
holy crap. the LS460 is porky. I never realized how much it weighs. I've always thought they were around 4000lbs 
But I still stand that they can acheive the same mileage with a 7spd. On the highway, you're ultimately going to be in your last gear so it wont matter how many speed you have at that point, its the gear ratio that will matter. I guess it wont be long until we start debating about 10 speed and then argue about how we should stick to 8spd
But I still stand that they can acheive the same mileage with a 7spd. On the highway, you're ultimately going to be in your last gear so it wont matter how many speed you have at that point, its the gear ratio that will matter. I guess it wont be long until we start debating about 10 speed and then argue about how we should stick to 8spd
02-06-07, 11:10 AM
#51
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Let me see here...
Guys on the internet think they know what is better than paid engineers for luxury marques. Yup that sounds right.
How can anyone argue over the benefits of more gears is beyond me.
Maybe you all should trade in your cars for 3 speed Plymouths of the 1950s...
Guys on the internet think they know what is better than paid engineers for luxury marques. Yup that sounds right.
How can anyone argue over the benefits of more gears is beyond me.
Maybe you all should trade in your cars for 3 speed Plymouths of the 1950s...
02-06-07, 11:11 AM
#52
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Obviously the S Class has a pre-crash safety system. I was specifically referring to the rear pre-crash system though, which the new LS has.
And doesn't exist? That's quite naive of you.
http://www.worldcarfans.com/print.cf...9.002/lang/eng
Just because current USDM LS models don't have it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The rear pre-crash system is available in Japan.
As for the driver monitoring system, it is mentioned as a feature for the LS600h, but may become available for regular LS models.
The original argument was that apart from hybrids, BMW and Mercedes didn't have to play catch up on anything else, and I am simply pointing out otherwise.
And doesn't exist? That's quite naive of you.
http://www.worldcarfans.com/print.cf...9.002/lang/eng
Just because current USDM LS models don't have it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The rear pre-crash system is available in Japan.
As for the driver monitoring system, it is mentioned as a feature for the LS600h, but may become available for regular LS models.
The original argument was that apart from hybrids, BMW and Mercedes didn't have to play catch up on anything else, and I am simply pointing out otherwise.
Hybrids.....still not sold on them. I'll leave them for Al Gore to buy.
02-06-07, 11:41 AM
#53
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Of course you aren't. Looking at your list of cars, money isn't much of a worry for you. Therefore, filling up more often isn't a concern. Plenty of other people are very interested in getting 50, 60, or more miles per gallon.
The next Prius will get 80 miles to the gallon. Still not sold?
Back to the topic,
I'm hoping the race stops at 8 speeds. I'm fine with 8, but more will seem pointless. The potential problems just aren't worth it.
And as far as those saying all these features are not needed. Well of course they're not NEEDED. But these are top luxury sedans so excess is the name of the game. Understand that automakers are scrambling to come up with new ideas all the time. Since we now get all the features only once available in luxury cars in regular class cars, luxury cars always have to be at the next level. Watch, in 15 years, a Corolla will PARK ITSELF!
Just think of what an LS will have to do then. 
02-06-07, 12:44 PM
#55
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Of course you aren't. Looking at your list of cars, money isn't much of a worry for you. Therefore, filling up more often isn't a concern. Plenty of other people are very interested in getting 50, 60, or more miles per gallon.
The next Prius will get 80 miles to the gallon. Still not sold?
The next Prius will get 80 miles to the gallon. Still not sold?
Now if Toyota or Lexus develops a diesel-electric hybrid I would seriously consider buying one, especially if it had AWD.
02-06-07, 01:30 PM
#56
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Let me see here...
Guys on the internet think they know what is better than paid engineers for luxury marques. Yup that sounds right.
How can anyone argue over the benefits of more gears is beyond me.
Maybe you all should trade in your cars for 3 speed Plymouths of the 1950s...
Guys on the internet think they know what is better than paid engineers for luxury marques. Yup that sounds right.
How can anyone argue over the benefits of more gears is beyond me.
Maybe you all should trade in your cars for 3 speed Plymouths of the 1950s...
Marketing team: Hey, let's put an 8 Speed Super-slusho-slippie-tronic transmission into the new [CarModelHere]!!!!!
Engineers: Why?
Marketing team: Because we think it'd be COOL!!!!!!!! Americans don't give a [poop] that it doesn't provide any real benefit. They just think it's cool.
Engineers: Gahhhhh... here we go again.
02-06-07, 02:17 PM
#57
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We have shown in Lexus case (and I am sure BMWs case) that the new trannies are lighter, more efficient, help with acceleration and now that I think about it quiet (driving at a lower RPM).
I do question at what point is a CVT the choice. Infinite gears instead of 7, 8, 9, 10!
02-06-07, 03:46 PM
#59
Lexus Champion
It's pretty simple. There are pros and cons to more gears in a transmission, and at some point the pros involve increasingly diminished returns that are eventually outweighed by the cons.
Go back to the days of the glide 2-speed automatic. That thing took a relative eternity to shift from lock to lock and when it was inbetween locks you were effectively not accelerating at all. Imagine if you had made the glide into an 8-speed transmission. Your 0-60 would be drastically worse because of all the time it'd spend shifting, it would likely be extremely large (may not even fit under most cars) and heavy, overly complex, and the heat caused by constantly shifting would quickly kill it.
Oh, and it'd be expensive as all get-out.
Yes, that's an extreme example. And today's auto transmissions shift very quickly, never really fall out of a positive gain type state (though power input is still reduced while shifting), and advances have been made to allow transmissions to become smaller, lighter, less complex, less expensive to build, and less susceptible to heat. But again, if it were a 4 or 5 speed auto designed using the same resources and technology, it'd likely be even smaller, lighter, cheaper to build, and more reliable than the 8-speed with the new technology. And depending on the time it takes the transmission to shift between gears and the power curve of the engine, it really may not give any real performance benefit to move to an 8-speed.
Look at what dragsters are still using today. 2 speed autos. It keeps the weight down, keeps the reliability high, and more importantly than anything, keeps time/power-robbing shifts down to a minimum. Those motors just have so much power than even if the shifts were instant and it didn't add any weight or reliability issues, the performance gain they'd see from going from a 2-speed to, say, a 5-speed is extremely marginal.
Yes I know with Lexus and BMW it's more than just performance - it also gives the benefit of a small rpm to rpm gap between shifts, possibly fuel economy (depending on the change in effective final drive ratio), and let's face it, bragging rights. But those factors can still be outweighed by the negatives I mentioned earlier.
Go back to the days of the glide 2-speed automatic. That thing took a relative eternity to shift from lock to lock and when it was inbetween locks you were effectively not accelerating at all. Imagine if you had made the glide into an 8-speed transmission. Your 0-60 would be drastically worse because of all the time it'd spend shifting, it would likely be extremely large (may not even fit under most cars) and heavy, overly complex, and the heat caused by constantly shifting would quickly kill it.
Oh, and it'd be expensive as all get-out.
Yes, that's an extreme example. And today's auto transmissions shift very quickly, never really fall out of a positive gain type state (though power input is still reduced while shifting), and advances have been made to allow transmissions to become smaller, lighter, less complex, less expensive to build, and less susceptible to heat. But again, if it were a 4 or 5 speed auto designed using the same resources and technology, it'd likely be even smaller, lighter, cheaper to build, and more reliable than the 8-speed with the new technology. And depending on the time it takes the transmission to shift between gears and the power curve of the engine, it really may not give any real performance benefit to move to an 8-speed.
Look at what dragsters are still using today. 2 speed autos. It keeps the weight down, keeps the reliability high, and more importantly than anything, keeps time/power-robbing shifts down to a minimum. Those motors just have so much power than even if the shifts were instant and it didn't add any weight or reliability issues, the performance gain they'd see from going from a 2-speed to, say, a 5-speed is extremely marginal.
Yes I know with Lexus and BMW it's more than just performance - it also gives the benefit of a small rpm to rpm gap between shifts, possibly fuel economy (depending on the change in effective final drive ratio), and let's face it, bragging rights. But those factors can still be outweighed by the negatives I mentioned earlier.
02-06-07, 04:41 PM
#60
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GOod points. Again though, if people are going to bish and moan about 8 speeds then
1. dual climate control
2. biger and bigger wheels and tires
3. More and more pistons on calipers
4. Hid and LED headlights..
5. the useless hp/torque in so many cars.
Luxury is about EXCESS. This is excessive, thus it belongs.
1. dual climate control
2. biger and bigger wheels and tires
3. More and more pistons on calipers
4. Hid and LED headlights..
5. the useless hp/torque in so many cars.
Luxury is about EXCESS. This is excessive, thus it belongs.