Interesting Talk With A Client: LS460L or S550.(long)
02-18-07, 08:17 PM
#106
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I have witnessed several people mistaking the new GS for a Altima or Maxima so many times. I think the new GS is a nice looking car except for the ugly rear end but it just does not look like a upmarket luxury car to me and looks more like a car that would be in the Toyota or Nissan lots than Lexus or other upmarket brand. The 2nd Gen GS just looks so much more like an expensive or upmarket luxury car and I don't think many people would mistake it for something that is less expensive or sold as a Nissan or Toyota even if they don't know anything about cars.
I had the opportunity to possibly get a 3rd Gen GS because the Lexus dealer wrote me a letter saying they would give me top dollar for my 01 GS and offer a great deal on a 3rd Gen because of their lack of inventory of 2nd Gens and high demand for my color options etc. I really looked at the 3rd Gen and it just did not do it for me even though it would be great to have a new car, warranty and nicer interior. A couple of my friends came with me to look and pretty much all said the car just did not have a presence like yours and did not look as nice or like a luxury car. After looking it over I just thought it looked too much like a Altima or Maxima and a little bland and did not offer much over the 2nd Gen besides a few more options, a slightly nicer looking interior, and being newer and was not worth all the extra money over my car.
I am not a badge snob and would have bought the 2GS even if it was a Toyota and would have preferred to get the Japan only model with the twin turbo Supra motor. I think at 50K the 2GS was overpriced and I would never spend that kind of money for it new but at least it looks pretty much like a 50K car should from the exterior where the new GS to me doesn't.
Alot of new Japanese cars like the RL, M45, and new GS may look good but to me just do not really like upmarket high priced luxury cars from many angles like the German and British competition but they do have nice interiors. The previous GS and even the previous RL and Legends I think looked a little more upmarket then their replacements. Even though the Mercedes E class gets alot of flak for being overpriced and unreliable it does look like an expensive car inside and out. I just saw a new black E350 a few days ago parked and it was just gorgeous inside and out. I think it is my favorite in this segment as far as looks and the interior just about ties the RL even though the RL uses some higher quality materials. I just would never buy one new because they are so overpriced and all the reliability problems.
The new LS460 is a nice looking car and most likely will be the most reliable in the segment but it just does not have much presence and can be easily confused with lower priced Lexus cars like the E350 and possibly the new Camry because they look pretty similiar although have different details. Every time I drive past the Lexus dealership I look for the new LS but get confused with if what I am seeing is the LS or the E which is not good in this class. With the last LS I never had a problem of confusing it with other Lexus or possibly Camrys or Avalons because it looked so different and had more presence even though it was not very good looking. Most Mercedes models aside from the low end C class, M class, and that hatchback have generally always have had a presence that most makes can not touch and just looked expensive and classy. I think that is why Mercedes has so many die hard fans that will always stay with the brand even though they are way overpriced and unreliable and would not switch to a more reliable Lexus.
I had the opportunity to possibly get a 3rd Gen GS because the Lexus dealer wrote me a letter saying they would give me top dollar for my 01 GS and offer a great deal on a 3rd Gen because of their lack of inventory of 2nd Gens and high demand for my color options etc. I really looked at the 3rd Gen and it just did not do it for me even though it would be great to have a new car, warranty and nicer interior. A couple of my friends came with me to look and pretty much all said the car just did not have a presence like yours and did not look as nice or like a luxury car. After looking it over I just thought it looked too much like a Altima or Maxima and a little bland and did not offer much over the 2nd Gen besides a few more options, a slightly nicer looking interior, and being newer and was not worth all the extra money over my car.
I am not a badge snob and would have bought the 2GS even if it was a Toyota and would have preferred to get the Japan only model with the twin turbo Supra motor. I think at 50K the 2GS was overpriced and I would never spend that kind of money for it new but at least it looks pretty much like a 50K car should from the exterior where the new GS to me doesn't.
Alot of new Japanese cars like the RL, M45, and new GS may look good but to me just do not really like upmarket high priced luxury cars from many angles like the German and British competition but they do have nice interiors. The previous GS and even the previous RL and Legends I think looked a little more upmarket then their replacements. Even though the Mercedes E class gets alot of flak for being overpriced and unreliable it does look like an expensive car inside and out. I just saw a new black E350 a few days ago parked and it was just gorgeous inside and out. I think it is my favorite in this segment as far as looks and the interior just about ties the RL even though the RL uses some higher quality materials. I just would never buy one new because they are so overpriced and all the reliability problems.
The new LS460 is a nice looking car and most likely will be the most reliable in the segment but it just does not have much presence and can be easily confused with lower priced Lexus cars like the E350 and possibly the new Camry because they look pretty similiar although have different details. Every time I drive past the Lexus dealership I look for the new LS but get confused with if what I am seeing is the LS or the E which is not good in this class. With the last LS I never had a problem of confusing it with other Lexus or possibly Camrys or Avalons because it looked so different and had more presence even though it was not very good looking. Most Mercedes models aside from the low end C class, M class, and that hatchback have generally always have had a presence that most makes can not touch and just looked expensive and classy. I think that is why Mercedes has so many die hard fans that will always stay with the brand even though they are way overpriced and unreliable and would not switch to a more reliable Lexus.
I think Lexus and its dealers have enjoyed excellent margins so far and to preserve those margins I think they cost reduced and cut corners on a lot of the new models. They're still wonderful cars but have edged a bit closer to Toyota as the Toyota models got a bit more upgraded.
I saw a new A6 the other day and I thought wow that car's sharp. Lots of nice details. Even the A4 looks REALLY sharp. WAY more nice details than the IS. Same as you said with E class. The 5 series, sorry, that doesn't do much for me except it has probably the best fitting seats ever made, but that's not important because I think Lexus is in much more of a battle with Audi and Mercedes than BMW. And from what we're hearing about the IS-F availability, it still sounds like Lexus will only be making a token effort at getting into the performance game.
Lexus makes very reliable, very comfortable, very refined vehicles targeted at affluent but typically sensible or cautious buyers. But they need to step it up in character and exterior details to engage the right hemisphere of luxury car buyer's brains. They're doing great in terms of sales, but too large a quantity of sales in a prestige brand can hurt it.
And I've come to the conclusion they need to dump the ES. Just as we've criticized Acura for not doing RWD sedans, the ES is FWD and has now been cost reduced a lot to where it may have a pleasing shape (except for in that god awful brown I keep seeing - blech) but the interior doesn't look like much of any step over an Avalon. The strategy of having 2 models (IS and ES) to crush the 3 series, C class, etc., may have made sense, but somehow the execution hasn't quite made that happen.
02-18-07, 08:40 PM
#107
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02-18-07, 08:47 PM
#108
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why are you suprised? First of all, LS430 already outsold S class for quite an while... 2nd of all, there are many people who only buy MB.
I have had one person look at European Avensis, they said it is considerably better quality that their 2-3 yr old C class but also said that no matter what, they will always buy MB... because his father first car was MB and his own was as well.
MB especially has a lot of tradition, and not everyone has to drive an Lexus!
I have had one person look at European Avensis, they said it is considerably better quality that their 2-3 yr old C class but also said that no matter what, they will always buy MB... because his father first car was MB and his own was as well.
MB especially has a lot of tradition, and not everyone has to drive an Lexus!
Honestly it's too bad.....there are so many great cars out there that anyone who sticks to one brand may never know what another brand has to offer.
02-18-07, 10:02 PM
#109
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02-18-07, 10:04 PM
#110
Sigh....the LS was always designed as a LS, called the LS everywhere BUT Japan since 1989. It is not some Toyota re badged as a LS.
As for perception, yes, some people will always say they are just Toyotas. Well BMW almost got bought by Benz in the 1950s and almost went bankrupt.
Gotta know your history.
As for perception, yes, some people will always say they are just Toyotas. Well BMW almost got bought by Benz in the 1950s and almost went bankrupt.
Gotta know your history.
LS was a rebadged Celsior. Yes, it was designed to be flagship of the new flaship line for Toyota in 1989. But it was released as a toyota 1st. The ES250 was a rebadge camry V6 with better interior material.
In other word, you are indeed incorrect.
Lexus only started in Japan in 2006. All lexus previously are rebadged toyota.
But this does not mean that the design and quality was not for a upper brand.
02-18-07, 10:10 PM
#111
I'm tired of hearing the Lexus is Toyota debate as if it somehow downgrades Lexus. I'm GLAD Lexus is a Toyota made car. That means it's a GREAT car.
Lexus is a superior car in many ways to the German marques. What do I care if it is Japenese. The Japenese build a better quality, more reliable car. The Mercedes name or BMW name doesn't impress me. The CAR is what matters.
I never understood how so many people put everything into a name or a history or heritage. Who cares. Big deal, MB is about 110 years old. So wasn't Oldsmobile and look at them. I judge a car on what it is here and now. That's all that matters.
Lexus is a superior car in many ways to the German marques. What do I care if it is Japenese. The Japenese build a better quality, more reliable car. The Mercedes name or BMW name doesn't impress me. The CAR is what matters.
I never understood how so many people put everything into a name or a history or heritage. Who cares. Big deal, MB is about 110 years old. So wasn't Oldsmobile and look at them. I judge a car on what it is here and now. That's all that matters.
German cars has much more character than Lexus. As much as I appreciate Toyota's quality, their cars are boring to drive. Toyota has taken driving appliance to a new level. For $85k or more, I would like a car to be more than a driving appliance.
For driving appliance duty, I can get all the benefit in a Toyota, why buy a lexus? It makes no sense. That's why I think buying a lexus is really none-sense.
Simply put, none of the lexus/toyota impresses me right now. Quality is good, but nothing special.
02-18-07, 10:51 PM
#112
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Well, i think you also need to re-learn your history.
LS was a rebadged Celsior. Yes, it was designed to be flagship of the new flaship line for Toyota in 1989. But it was released as a toyota 1st. The ES250 was a rebadge camry V6 with better interior material.
In other word, you are indeed incorrect.
Lexus only started in Japan in 2006. All lexus previously are rebadged toyota.
But this does not mean that the design and quality was not for a upper brand.
LS was a rebadged Celsior. Yes, it was designed to be flagship of the new flaship line for Toyota in 1989. But it was released as a toyota 1st. The ES250 was a rebadge camry V6 with better interior material.
In other word, you are indeed incorrect.
Lexus only started in Japan in 2006. All lexus previously are rebadged toyota.
But this does not mean that the design and quality was not for a upper brand.
You are INCORRECT, read the Lexus Story. The LS was designed GROUND UP as a new car into territory Toyota never entered before. They badged is a Toyota Celsior in Japan b/c they did NOT establish a dealer network in Japan. The car debuted as the LS everywhere else in the world.
They did not have a Celsior before. Toyota did not just rebadge a Toyota and call it the LS.
02-18-07, 10:55 PM
#113
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I think Toyota's quality has been slipping. You don't hear about transmission issue, oil leak, from new design. The fact of matter is that Toyota quality is getting worse. The older Toyota were designed better and are extremely durable. But since 01, i really don't think Toyota's quality is as good as previous year. Although still the best outhere, I really don't think today's toyota or lexus are as well built as their counter part 10 years ago.
German cars has much more character than Lexus. As much as I appreciate Toyota's quality, their cars are boring to drive. Toyota has taken driving appliance to a new level. For $85k or more, I would like a car to be more than a driving appliance.
For driving appliance duty, I can get all the benefit in a Toyota, why buy a lexus? It makes no sense. That's why I think buying a lexus is really none-sense.
Simply put, none of the lexus/toyota impresses me right now. Quality is good, but nothing special.
German cars has much more character than Lexus. As much as I appreciate Toyota's quality, their cars are boring to drive. Toyota has taken driving appliance to a new level. For $85k or more, I would like a car to be more than a driving appliance.
For driving appliance duty, I can get all the benefit in a Toyota, why buy a lexus? It makes no sense. That's why I think buying a lexus is really none-sense.
Simply put, none of the lexus/toyota impresses me right now. Quality is good, but nothing special.
02-18-07, 11:10 PM
#115
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^^^ not even close.
GL not = ML.. grill, hood, glass panels... etc
CLK (coupe) not = SL (convert).. how can someone say a coupe looks like a convert is beyone me..
C not = S .. one posted is old btw.
3 not = 5.. let alone an M5..
GL not = ML.. grill, hood, glass panels... etc
CLK (coupe) not = SL (convert).. how can someone say a coupe looks like a convert is beyone me..
C not = S .. one posted is old btw.
3 not = 5.. let alone an M5..
02-18-07, 11:22 PM
#116
Seriously, your telling ME, about Lexus history? You are INCORRECT, read the Lexus Story.
The LS was designed GROUND UP as a new car into territory Toyota never entered before. They badged is a Toyota Celsior in Japan b/c they did NOT establish a dealer network in Japan. The car debuted as the LS everywhere else in the world.
They did not have a Celsior before. Toyota did not just rebadge a Toyota and call it the LS.
You are INCORRECT, read the Lexus Story. The LS was designed GROUND UP as a new car into territory Toyota never entered before. They badged is a Toyota Celsior in Japan b/c they did NOT establish a dealer network in Japan. The car debuted as the LS everywhere else in the world.
They did not have a Celsior before. Toyota did not just rebadge a Toyota and call it the LS.
Last time i check, the Toyota Century is a class above Celsior, and has been around since 1967.
So UCF10 is not entering a new market for Toyota. The fact of matter is that although the car was debuted in US. in jan. of 1989, and sold 1st car in october in 89 as 1990 model. The Japanese got the Celsior to customer earlier than LS. Which, does mean that it was launched as Toyota 1st and sold to customer 1st as toyota. So technically stating it as a rebadged toyota is correct.
Despite what you and other preach that LS/Celsior is entering a new territory is simply not true. It does mark Toyota's 1st attempt at entering a luxury segement world wide. But its not the 1st time it has build an ultra luxury car. Because Century which sit higher than anything outhere under either Toyota or Lexus brand has been around since 1967.
02-18-07, 11:27 PM
#117
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02-19-07, 05:26 AM
#119
It's not that MB's and Bimmers are hard to tell apart, they certainly look different, just like Lexii, however they are all so similar that unless you follow the brand closely, you wont be able to tell which one is which. Take these caption off from the CLK and SL, and 3 and 5 series, and I wont be able to tell which one is which.
02-19-07, 06:01 AM
#120
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I think Toyota's quality has been slipping. You don't hear about transmission issue, oil leak, from new design. The fact of matter is that Toyota quality is getting worse. The older Toyota were designed better and are extremely durable. But since 01, i really don't think Toyota's quality is as good as previous year. Although still the best outhere, I really don't think today's toyota or lexus are as well built as their counter part 10 years ago.
German cars has much more character than Lexus. As much as I appreciate Toyota's quality, their cars are boring to drive. Toyota has taken driving appliance to a new level. For $85k or more, I would like a car to be more than a driving appliance.
), that's the focus - a driving experience relieving the driver of those annoying things most people have to do to operate a vehicle! One less thing to think about. It may be boring to you, but to a busy person they're enormously grateful to have this magic carpet.
For driving appliance duty, I can get all the benefit in a Toyota, why buy a lexus? It makes no sense. That's why I think buying a lexus is really none-sense.
).
Simply put, none of the lexus/toyota impresses me right now. Quality is good, but nothing special.