NEWSWEEK: GM vs. Toyota
03-07-07, 05:24 PM
#16
However you want to twist things around - I rather see a company that does more good than harm to our economy -- in fact i support GM for alot of years - I had alot shares in GM for many years until recently I had to sell out unless i wanted to lose my butt due to their negative dividends!
03-07-07, 08:06 PM
#19
This reply probably isn't going to get me very far, but then again, I'm one of the few lurkers on here who isn't so supportive of Toyota in the US. Their entry into NASCAR and a pickup assembly plant in San Antonio does not make them American. Until they pick up their HQ and list their shares as domestic shares on the New York Stock Exchange, Toyota will not be an American company... Period.
The 'Big-3' dug themselves into a very deep hole in the '80s through the mid-'90s that has completely wiped away a generation [or two] of car buyers who will never bat an eye at a domestic vehicle due to perception of quality. Here's an interesting study that JD Powers recently conducted that illustrates these factors working against Detroit: http://detnews.com/graphics/2007/0102jdpower.pdf
It's interesting to note that those who refuse to buy domestic cars do so because they find them unreliable and of inferior quality. While this generalization held true for a majority of vehicle classes, Ford, GM and DCX have made radical improvements in the past three years. Some long-term reliability studies have put domestic models on par with or better than Japenese counterparts. Another point in the study that is fascinating shows that people who buy Asian actually don't want to. They just can't have a car that is going to break down. Reliability is still the big challenge for the domestics, but they're also starting to take note of the 'perception of quality' issues that have worked against them for so many years... plastics, switchgear, panel gaps, electronics and other tactile-feel metrics.
How much does the general public know about the automotive industry? I'd argue that you and I, the "enthusiasts," are a slim minority. How are these perception gaps formed and which values mean the most to sway a purchase decision one way or another? http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/bamw...129-auto.shtml
The 'Big-3' dug themselves into a very deep hole in the '80s through the mid-'90s that has completely wiped away a generation [or two] of car buyers who will never bat an eye at a domestic vehicle due to perception of quality. Here's an interesting study that JD Powers recently conducted that illustrates these factors working against Detroit: http://detnews.com/graphics/2007/0102jdpower.pdf
It's interesting to note that those who refuse to buy domestic cars do so because they find them unreliable and of inferior quality. While this generalization held true for a majority of vehicle classes, Ford, GM and DCX have made radical improvements in the past three years. Some long-term reliability studies have put domestic models on par with or better than Japenese counterparts. Another point in the study that is fascinating shows that people who buy Asian actually don't want to. They just can't have a car that is going to break down. Reliability is still the big challenge for the domestics, but they're also starting to take note of the 'perception of quality' issues that have worked against them for so many years... plastics, switchgear, panel gaps, electronics and other tactile-feel metrics.
How much does the general public know about the automotive industry? I'd argue that you and I, the "enthusiasts," are a slim minority. How are these perception gaps formed and which values mean the most to sway a purchase decision one way or another? http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/bamw...129-auto.shtml
Just a correction, Chrysler is NOT part of the Big 3. Chrysler is no longer an American company and have not been since Daimler took them over when they were de-listed on the S&P which only lists the top 500 AMERICAN companies.
In other words, Chrysler is a foreign company.
03-07-07, 11:44 PM
#20
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seeing those with high powered engines exhilirates me, but going inside and at least try to feel every part of it doesn't want me to have one at all. i'm sleepy
Last edited by manila_boy; 03-07-07 at 11:52 PM.
03-08-07, 12:39 AM
#21
ur absolutely right, i guess what i'm saying is if these companies inside GM makes good quality cars (like japanese does now a days) they would provided millions and millions of jobs in the US, for ex. saturn - those cars are perfect for college or first time buyers, hummers would look really tough on u even if ur not but see it killed it from quality to being gas guzzling machines, i wouldn't mind buying a high priced vehicle (to know it's built and made by american quality parts) but now u don't see that, a decade or two ago whenever u go to a different countries u see people admire all american products because they always backs it up w/ pure quality, everything else still has it, but cars i don't know-i would buy ford if i was in europe (love those escorts). when i was a kid i always dream of having a mustang, now ford loses mustang in every hour of the day seeing those with high powered engines exhilirates me, but going inside and at least try to feel every part of it doesn't want me to have one at all. i'm sleepy
seeing those with high powered engines exhilirates me, but going inside and at least try to feel every part of it doesn't want me to have one at all. i'm sleepy
03-08-07, 08:43 PM
#22
MOST of GMs vehicles are piles of crap. The build quality throughout their entire lineup save a few is horrible. There are so many documented problems on forums, so many surveys from so many reputable sources; and they all say the same thing... Toyota builds FAR better quality vehicles than GM, they have a FAR better business model than GM, etc, etc, etc.
You can't argue with those facts. GM is run by a bunch of old men that havent learned their lessons from the butt whippings they've been receiving over the past 20 years. They continue to put out boring and half-assed products for the most part. Yes I think their trucks are nice, yes I like the Vette (even with the optional targa-top Z06), and even the CTS-V (even tho my mother's $20k Solara has a better interior). But there's still a ton of other cars with a ton of other problems and GM is so blind that they completely ignore the issue.
I understand you hate toyota, and you seem to be a GM propaganda machine; because all you do is talk about statistics that really don't matter much when it comes down to it. I support the best products unless I see a reason not to (my support of AMD over Intel for the time being). It can be American, Japanese, or German, I don't care. Its all about free-market economy living in a Darwin-style world. Evolve or die. I'm about progress and competition and their symbiotic relationship. I like technological and even general advancement -- and competition brings about an innovation and a drive as a catalyst for that advancement. I'm all about continuous improvement of oneself and ones environment (or else I wouldnt be in college right now after having dropped out so many years ago)... and if an American company (a country I truly love) has to get its *** handed to it and even face bankruptcy, then so be it.
03-08-07, 10:48 PM
#23
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MOST of GMs vehicles are piles of crap. The build quality throughout their entire lineup save a few is horrible. There are so many documented problems on forums, so many surveys from so many reputable sources; and they all say the same thing... Toyota builds FAR better quality vehicles than GM, they have a FAR better business model than GM, etc, etc, etc.
"FAR better business model..." That's arguable, but Toyota is getting it done in the US, and is projected to take over GM as the world's largest auto manufacturer by the end of this year. Unlike Ford and GM, Toyota does not contribute to costly employee healthcare and pension plans. They also do not employ in unionized states. I'm sure you read my statistic [that really doesn't matter much] which states the number of people GM employs in the US over Toyota.
You try to paint a pretty picture for Toyota... maybe you're convinced they love you? There's an interesting article in this month's Motor Trend magazine. I had no idea how complex and structured Toyota's management can be... almost all executive strategy [for the US market] still filters through Aichi, and they're not hesitant to call managers up and book 20-hour round-trip flights to meet for just one day. The Prius sold at a loss for years before its popularity exploded last year--it took a hurricane and thousands of Global-Warming activists to finally spur hybrids.
No auto manufacturer is perfect, and Toyota is quickly discovering its growing pains. How did that oil sludge litigation finally turn out? Five years after originally reported, Toyota finally settled its class-action suit and will be extending the warranty of up to 7.5 million vehicles to 8 years. Great timing, since 2006 was an especially harsh year, as they recalled 418,570 vehicles worldwide for faulty engine components that resulted in oil leaks. Earlier this year, 533,000 Tundras and Sequoias were recalled due to faulty lower ball joints. This appended a similar recall issued last year for the same issue on an earlier production run. If you look at the previous recall and then add this one to it, what you have is a TOTAL RECALL of the ENTIRE production run of vehicles on this truck chassis from 2002-2007 for a major safety defect.
The trend is startling to Toyota execs: records compiled by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration show Toyota with 2.4 million vehicles recalled in 2005, compared with 1.1 million in 2004.
You can't argue with those facts.
GM is run by a bunch of old men that havent learned their lessons from the butt whippings they've been receiving over the past 20 years. They continue to put out boring and half-assed products for the most part.
3 Toyota officials probed in alleged recall negligence
Yuri Ageyama / Associated Press
TOKYO -- Three Toyota officials are under a criminal investigation on suspicion of professional negligence for allegedly shirking recalls for eight years and not fixing a defect that may have caused an accident, police said Tuesday.
Toyota Motor Corp. denied the officials had engaged in any wrongdoing. The automaker said in a statement it was cooperating fully with the investigation.
Kumamoto police in southern Japan filed papers to prosecutors Tuesday, a police spokesman said. Accused are three Toyota officials, ages 62, 58 and 55, who oversee quality control at the automaker, he said.
Their names have not been disclosed. Toyota said at least one of the officials had left the company, although reasons for the departure were unclear.
Five people were injured on Aug. 12, 2004, in Kumamoto in a head-on crash when steering failed in a Toyota Hilux Surf sport utility vehicle, causing it to swing out of control into the wrong lane. One person in the other vehicle suffered injuries requiring 52 days of treatment, while four suffered more minor injuries, police said.
(The Hilux Surf is sold outside Japan, primarily in the USA as the Toyota 4Runner.)
Toyota said a recall was carried out in October 2004 for 330,000 Hilux Surf vehicles manufactured between December 1988 and May 1996. The recall was for a problem part used in the steering system that could break, according to Toyota.
Toyota said the vehicle involved in the accident was manufactured in 1993.
Toyota had received five reports of problems with the steering by 1996, but the problems were limited to repeatedly turning the wheel during parking, and no recall was made then, it said. After additional problems were reported in 2004, Toyota carried our another investigation and decided to carry out a recall.
The model affected by the 2004 recall, totaling 1.2 million vehicles, was sold in 180 nations abroad including the U.S. and Europe, and a recall was carried out in September 2005, according to Toyota. Eighteen cases of problems were reported from overseas, but there were no accidents or injuries, it said.
A Toyota official, speaking on condition of anonymity, quoted police as saying that reports about problems began in 1992, and company officials are accused of being aware of them as early as 1995 or 1996.
The automaker, based in Toyota city, central Japan, said it will continue to make quality a priority.
"We will continue to strengthen quality control under our belief that we must put the customer first and make quality No. 1," Toyota said in the statement.
Toyota has been reporting booming sales in recent years and is growing so rapidly some analysts expect it to overtake struggling General Motors Corp. of the U.S. as the world's biggest automaker in coming years.
But Toyota, known worldwide for impeccable quality, has suffered somewhat of an image problem lately because its number of recalls has soared, raising doubts whether the automaker can continue to maintain quality standards as it embarks on the next step of global expansion.
Yuri Ageyama / Associated Press
TOKYO -- Three Toyota officials are under a criminal investigation on suspicion of professional negligence for allegedly shirking recalls for eight years and not fixing a defect that may have caused an accident, police said Tuesday.
Toyota Motor Corp. denied the officials had engaged in any wrongdoing. The automaker said in a statement it was cooperating fully with the investigation.
Kumamoto police in southern Japan filed papers to prosecutors Tuesday, a police spokesman said. Accused are three Toyota officials, ages 62, 58 and 55, who oversee quality control at the automaker, he said.
Their names have not been disclosed. Toyota said at least one of the officials had left the company, although reasons for the departure were unclear.
Five people were injured on Aug. 12, 2004, in Kumamoto in a head-on crash when steering failed in a Toyota Hilux Surf sport utility vehicle, causing it to swing out of control into the wrong lane. One person in the other vehicle suffered injuries requiring 52 days of treatment, while four suffered more minor injuries, police said.
(The Hilux Surf is sold outside Japan, primarily in the USA as the Toyota 4Runner.)
Toyota said a recall was carried out in October 2004 for 330,000 Hilux Surf vehicles manufactured between December 1988 and May 1996. The recall was for a problem part used in the steering system that could break, according to Toyota.
Toyota said the vehicle involved in the accident was manufactured in 1993.
Toyota had received five reports of problems with the steering by 1996, but the problems were limited to repeatedly turning the wheel during parking, and no recall was made then, it said. After additional problems were reported in 2004, Toyota carried our another investigation and decided to carry out a recall.
The model affected by the 2004 recall, totaling 1.2 million vehicles, was sold in 180 nations abroad including the U.S. and Europe, and a recall was carried out in September 2005, according to Toyota. Eighteen cases of problems were reported from overseas, but there were no accidents or injuries, it said.
A Toyota official, speaking on condition of anonymity, quoted police as saying that reports about problems began in 1992, and company officials are accused of being aware of them as early as 1995 or 1996.
The automaker, based in Toyota city, central Japan, said it will continue to make quality a priority.
"We will continue to strengthen quality control under our belief that we must put the customer first and make quality No. 1," Toyota said in the statement.
Toyota has been reporting booming sales in recent years and is growing so rapidly some analysts expect it to overtake struggling General Motors Corp. of the U.S. as the world's biggest automaker in coming years.
But Toyota, known worldwide for impeccable quality, has suffered somewhat of an image problem lately because its number of recalls has soared, raising doubts whether the automaker can continue to maintain quality standards as it embarks on the next step of global expansion.
Those "half-assed products" earned GM the Motor Trend Truck of the Year for 2007. It could happen for the new Tundra next year, but let's hope they get their marketing strategy straight:
1. Base V8 is way off on power. Base V8 in the GMT900 is 295HP. The Tundra is 270 - and it gets worse gas mileage.
2. The 4wd V8 versions of the Tundra get no better than 18mpg on the highway. GM's 4wd V8's get 20mpg.
3. No fully boxed frame and 5-lug hubs.
I thought this truck was serious?4. The only vehicle in the lineup that actually can tow 10,800# is the 2WD regular cab. The most popular configuration; the crew cab with short-short box is only capable of 10,100#. GM's equivalent of that can tow 10,500.
I understand you hate toyota, and you seem to be a GM propaganda machine; because all you do is talk about statistics that really don't matter much when it comes down to it.
I support the best products unless I see a reason not to (my support of AMD over Intel for the time being).
...and if an American company (a country I truly love) has to get its *** handed to it and even face bankruptcy, then so be it.
03-08-07, 11:37 PM
#25
Lexus Champion
Facts:
GM is the #1 carmaker in the world by sales volume. Toyota is #2, though is expected to over take GM in 2007.
Toyota makes more vehicles in the U.S. than it does in Japan. It's as American as apple pie. GM is shifting production to Mexico. It's as Mexican as burrito.
When GM was talking about its hybrid cars and SUVs, Toyota already got its third-generation performance hybrid on the market.
In Consumer Reports owner survey, Toyota routinely owns GM in reliability.
GM has a good old boy management that blames its issues on its labor cost (and the retired workforce that built GM.) Toyota sees its labor force a valuable asset and works closely with its workforce to produce better vehicles.
GM is the #1 carmaker in the world by sales volume. Toyota is #2, though is expected to over take GM in 2007.
Toyota makes more vehicles in the U.S. than it does in Japan. It's as American as apple pie. GM is shifting production to Mexico. It's as Mexican as burrito.
When GM was talking about its hybrid cars and SUVs, Toyota already got its third-generation performance hybrid on the market.
In Consumer Reports owner survey, Toyota routinely owns GM in reliability.
GM has a good old boy management that blames its issues on its labor cost (and the retired workforce that built GM.) Toyota sees its labor force a valuable asset and works closely with its workforce to produce better vehicles.
03-09-07, 12:01 AM
#26
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03-09-07, 12:30 AM
#27
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Facts:
GM is the #1 carmaker in the world by sales volume. Toyota is #2, though is expected to over take GM in 2007.
Toyota makes more vehicles in the U.S. than it does in Japan. It's as American as apple pie. GM is shifting production to Mexico. It's as Mexican as burrito.
GM is the #1 carmaker in the world by sales volume. Toyota is #2, though is expected to over take GM in 2007.
Toyota makes more vehicles in the U.S. than it does in Japan. It's as American as apple pie. GM is shifting production to Mexico. It's as Mexican as burrito.
Thanks for ignoring the suppliers I mentioned earlier. For example, the Corolla is assembled in Canada of mostly Japanese materials and the balance, primarily Camrys, Siennas and Tundra's are assembled in the US of, as Toyota now says in it ads, of "world sourced parts." Toyota stopped advertising "Made in America" last October after Honda, who actually makes the Accord in the US of mostly US parts [and has a '1' as the first number of the VIN], complained to the FTC about Toyota's false claim they made vehicles in the US, rather than merely assembling them here. The only vehicles with a 'Toyota' brand on the grill and a '1' as the first number of the VIN, are those made in the GM/Toyota plant in California where the UAW contract requires at least 75% US content. The NA parts label aside, the Camry for example has a '4' as the first number of the VIN which indicates a US total content of less than 70%, but more than 40%. The Tundra on the other hand has a '5' as the first number of the VIN indicating a US content of less than 40%. All hybrid and Lexus models are imported.
By your account, one would think all GM cars are now produced in Mexico. In reality, only the Cavalier, Sunfire, Silverado, Suburban and Aztek were assembled in Mexico. The Aztek is now gone and the bulk of Silverados and Suburbans sold in the US are still produced here, in Arlington, TX. Toyota makes more vehicles here than in Japan based on sales volume in this market. The US is still the world's biggest stage for auto sales.
When GM was talking about its hybrid cars and SUVs, Toyota already got its third-generation performance hybrid on the market.
GM has a good old boy management that blames its issues on its labor cost (and the retired workforce that built GM.) Toyota sees its labor force a valuable asset and works closely with its workforce to produce better vehicles.
03-09-07, 04:37 AM
#28
Jerry,
Some of your numbers are off.
Camry is 92% American made parts, the exact same number as GM's 2 highest American content cars, Equinox and HHR.
BTW,
Escalade, Suburban, Avalanche, Yukon 70% American parts
Tahoe 67% American Parts
So since these fall short of the 75%, are these no longer American?
Some of your numbers are off.
Camry is 92% American made parts, the exact same number as GM's 2 highest American content cars, Equinox and HHR.
BTW,
Escalade, Suburban, Avalanche, Yukon 70% American parts
Tahoe 67% American Parts
So since these fall short of the 75%, are these no longer American?
03-09-07, 04:49 AM
#29
Lexus Fanatic
Toyota stopped advertising "Made in America" last October after Honda, who actually makes the Accord in the US of mostly US parts [and has a '1' as the first number of the VIN], complained to the FTC about Toyota's false claim they made vehicles in the US, rather than merely assembling them here.
Honda, in this instance, is full of ****. They can argue technicalities all they want, but a car that is put together in an American plant and rolls off the assembly line in one piece is as American as baseball, apple pie, and the Stars and Stripes.
For instance, I bought an AMERICAN Subaru Outback, two years ago.....rolled out of a joint Isuzu-Subaru plant at Lafayette, IN.
Last edited by mmarshall; 03-09-07 at 04:54 AM.
03-09-07, 08:02 AM
#30
Call me unpatriotic all you want but I find that I prefer my cars assembled in Japan. Something about them being shorter and so their eyes are closer to their work and things just work better that way. Actually that came from an old movie but I still feel the same way.
GM had their chance with me years ago. Some would argue they are now better, well then go ahead and wave your flag from the side of the road while waiting for the tow truck.
You do not own 40+ vehicles and not form an opinion on certain things. Heck, even my auto club canceled me years back due to excessive tows.
The only cars that I have had that I would consider reliable were Hondas and Toyota products.
So, what is GM going to do for me now to make up for the utter cr@p they built in the past and the frustration I went through? Nothing, and so I will do nothing for them.
If I want to gamble with my money, I will take it to state line or Vegas where my odds are better. Some may not like it, some may just sit there and type for hours/days to type a rebuttal, but in the end, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and nobody is going to change that. Buy what you want from where you want with your money and in the end if you are happy, so be it.
But....to add. the would not mind a new Z06but will be going German for my sports car instead.
GM had their chance with me years ago. Some would argue they are now better, well then go ahead and wave your flag from the side of the road while waiting for the tow truck.
You do not own 40+ vehicles and not form an opinion on certain things. Heck, even my auto club canceled me years back due to excessive tows.
The only cars that I have had that I would consider reliable were Hondas and Toyota products.
So, what is GM going to do for me now to make up for the utter cr@p they built in the past and the frustration I went through? Nothing, and so I will do nothing for them.
If I want to gamble with my money, I will take it to state line or Vegas where my odds are better. Some may not like it, some may just sit there and type for hours/days to type a rebuttal, but in the end, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and nobody is going to change that. Buy what you want from where you want with your money and in the end if you are happy, so be it.
But....to add. the would not mind a new Z06
but will be going German for my sports car instead.
Last edited by Pearlpower; 03-09-07 at 01:56 PM.