is_wil

Just had an interesting read on MSNBC/Newsweek regarding GM vs. Toyota.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17437402/site/newsweek/

My comment: I love cars - I personally don't buy into the who's better, GM or Toyota debate. If GM keeps it up, they'll be just as good in my book. If the new CTS was out already (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...icleId=119071), I'd have a hard time deciding on that vs. the IS350...

is_wil

Thought you guys might like this one as well.

CNN/Fortune Mag weighs in on Toyota:
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortu...ion=2007030709

JerryRig

This reply probably isn't going to get me very far, but then again, I'm one of the few lurkers on here who isn't so supportive of Toyota in the US. Their entry into NASCAR and a pickup assembly plant in San Antonio does not make them American. Until they pick up their HQ and list their shares as domestic shares on the New York Stock Exchange, Toyota will not be an American company... Period.

The 'Big-3' dug themselves into a very deep hole in the '80s through the mid-'90s that has completely wiped away a generation [or two] of car buyers who will never bat an eye at a domestic vehicle due to perception of quality. Here's an interesting study that JD Powers recently conducted that illustrates these factors working against Detroit: http://detnews.com/graphics/2007/0102jdpower.pdf

It's interesting to note that those who refuse to buy domestic cars do so because they find them unreliable and of inferior quality. While this generalization held true for a majority of vehicle classes, Ford, GM and DCX have made radical improvements in the past three years. Some long-term reliability studies have put domestic models on par with or better than Japenese counterparts. Another point in the study that is fascinating shows that people who buy Asian actually don't want to. They just can't have a car that is going to break down. Reliability is still the big challenge for the domestics, but they're also starting to take note of the 'perception of quality' issues that have worked against them for so many years... plastics, switchgear, panel gaps, electronics and other tactile-feel metrics.

How much does the general public know about the automotive industry? I'd argue that you and I, the "enthusiasts," are a slim minority. How are these perception gaps formed and which values mean the most to sway a purchase decision one way or another? http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/bamw...129-auto.shtml

ff_

I agree, JerryRig. GM has done some great things recently in terms of build quality/appearance. They show all the signs of digging themselves out of the problem they've created over the past 2 decades. Ford and Chrysler, on the other hand, I'm not so sure. I've cross-shopped their products (just to be fair) on a few occasions over the past 2 years, and am yet to see something that I would consider acceptable. The visible build quality + fit/finish are still sub-par. I'm so turned off by their cars and their current state of affairs, that I won't even give them a second look. If it didn't mean a major loss of jobs in the US, I wouldn't care if they closed up shop tomorrow, and went out of business for good.

I see great things coming out of GM's doors these days. There are several models that I will have my eyes on the next time I'm in the market for a new car.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Well, I consider myself a car enthusiant, but there's simply not a single American car that even remotely attracts me. Not even the Corvette.

whoster

it doesn't matter what percentage of car owners are enthusiasts--the bottom line is, the Camry is the best selling car in America, without fleet sales and drop-offs to rentals and government agencies.

I have nothing against American companies or American vehicles. my first car was a Saturn SC2 and i was totally fine with it.

When i switched over to a Toyota Land Cruiser a decade older however--it was still a better car than my Saturn by miles. Doing carwash fundraisers for church and whatnot...i've wiped many an interior to complete a wash, and to be honest i was appalled at the interior fit and finish of American vehicles even made in the past 5 years. Fading plastics, loose panels, panel gaps that will swallow stacks of coins--that kind of build quality doesn't get past anybody--whether you're an enthusiast or not. It's not hard to tell and appreciate a vehicle that's built to withstand years and miles of use knowing that it will hold up for a good decade or so--on the other hand, it's not that hard to tell a vehicle which WON'T last a good decade or so.

Toyota as a whole isn't an American company, but their Toyota Motors America and Toyota Motor Sales are based down the street from me, paying the same taxes and using the same roads, and chock full of American employees--isn't that American enough? Because by your definition, Dodge, Chrysler, Jeep and the rest of the DCX family is all owned by Mercedes so they're a German company then yeah?

I realize that now with Lutz manhandling and pushing to up GM quality, GM will put out quality products. i think that's great--it won't be so easy to bash on domestic vehicles, but the fact of the matter is, as it stands today--we're still waiting for the quality vehicles to come out. Two, three models in the lineup doesn't mean a whole company is on the road to salvation. The new trucks and suvs are great examples of GM quality, i just want to see more of it, and throughout the whole GM family.

ff_

You have some figures to support that? I thought that the figures included fleet sales.

LeXusIS714

Why do American hate Toyota? They bring jobs into our country and compeititon into the auto industry which in return will benefit consumers like us. IMO, Toyota present in the states will make our auto industry better and strong.

IS_Mine

Not all Americans hate Toyota, just the ones with deep ties to the Big 3.

Seriously, I like the fact its Imports vs Domestics, keeps all companies on edge! In the long run it benefits us all because they will all fight about HP, looks, and reliability. Finally some of the domestics are catching up.

I'm with another poster here! Besides Caddys and the Vette really nothing on the Domestic side would be worth buying imho. Even then I don't find anything that Honda/Acura puts out besides the S2000 eye catching. Same with Nissan/Infiniti.. I do however love the Z and G series. Toyota I guess just got my attention with the Supra, the Tundra and of course with Lexus' 2IS. I won't even get into Mitsubishi and Hyundai. No thank you. Kia.. I think they have nice styles, but.. nope, not for me!

Seriously the only line up that I find flawless is BMW. So what does that make me? An anti-domestic, wish-washy Japanese, German enthusiast?

I think that 80% of Americans are after a car that will take them from A to B, 3% die har imports, and the rest die hard Domestics.

1QWKGS4

iTrader: (3)

LeXusIS714 has got a good point.. Toyota brought jobs into America whereas GM shuts down there plants and send manufacturing into Mexico and else where!!!

Why hate Toyota? when everyone is overlooking what GM does? (maybe we should hate GM - ask any GM (American worker) who lost his job due to GM's plant shutdown..

manila_boy

how many car manufacturers under the GM name again???

...how many car co. under the name Toyota in the U.S.??? 3 that's Toyota, Scion, n Lexus. (w/ Toyota eng. n parts) Daihatsu/Hino Trucks is Toyota in Japan and Lotus Exige with the vvtl-i eng. i just read these no proof

me don't like the new camry when it came out, but hick i'm seeing it everywhere!!! ...now it looks ok to me.

1QWKGS4

iTrader: (3)

The point is not about who has more brands! the point is "Why hate toyota vs. GM.. I'll make it clear ""TOYOTA brings jobs to the U.S. which supports our Economy whereas GM takes Jobs away and give it to other countries!!"" If you argue with that than you might as well consider yourself "Un-American"..

Shawnmack

IMO I think Gm is scared crazy because I don't think toyota will make dumb mistakes like GM. The only thing Toyota should have done is Kept the supra to compete with the vettes, z, S2000 etc.

JerryRig

Toyota brings jobs to the U.S. to assemble parts and vehicles sourced from overseas suppliers.

By the end of 2005, Toyota employed an estimated 31,000 people. GM employed 335,000.

The average domestic content of MY-2005 Toyota/Lexus vehicles was 47%. GM's MY-2005 vehicles were comprised of an average 74% domestic content. These are the same suppliers who produce starters, radios, harnesses, hoses, tires, etc. for the car that's finally assembled by US workers. Coorelated to sales totals for the year, GM purchased approx. 4.25 times MORE domestic-supplied auto parts than Toyota.

GSteg

iTrader: (15)

The amount of jobs Toyota brings to the American is insignificant to the amount of American workers who where/will be laid off by the big three. We're talking at least three times as many people.

Toyota may sell well here, but most of their profit goes back to Japan. Many americans rather see profit being sent back to the American market, rather than to a foreign country.

You cannot always believe Toyota whenever they release a press. Adding 5,000 jobs or so may seem like a lot, but look at how many Americans have lost their jobs.