mmarshall

Fine, what you say may be correct, but they lose out, either way. if they run it on the track, DSC or no DSC they void the warranty, and it they forcefully disconnect the DSC system, the warranty is also voided. So it's a choice between Peter and Paul.

Anyway, let's not dominate the whole thread just arguing about the DSC. (Yes, I realize I brought the subject up in the first place). We'll just agree to disagree, and move on...there are many other things about these two cars to discuss.

newr

agree, but if it can't be done on a mountain spirited driving because of the computer nanny, it can not be done at a race track or competition area either so hence the problem.

voiding the warranty for tracking is a different issue and it's the owner's choice to take that risk.

fair enough.

As much as I hate the SMG in my sister's 06 E46 M3. Comparing to the 6MT in the M5, the SMG now ain't so bad after all.

Threxx

Stupid comparison - the only way they connected those two was 'the only cars from Germany with over 400hp and a manual transmission'... that's a stretch.

I think I'd take an E63 over either of those - but between the two I think I'd take the M5 though I can't be sure as I've never driven one - just based on what I know of it. The motor does seem a bit rev-happy though which is not my preference...

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

The looks alone do it for me with the Audi.

Exterior and interior, I think it wins hands down.

And a car with that much power makes AWD that much more valued and important in putting it down on the pavement.

Way to go Audi!

mmarshall

Are you interested in an M5? The reason I ask is that you can save a lot of money buying a 550i over an M5, and while it is obviously not quite the M's equal, it STILL goes like stink....I reviewed one a few months ago and was very impressed wth its power and the traditional BMW superb steering I found it to be a classic driver's car, except for the I-Drive.

doug999 has one and he loves it.

Vlad_Stein

The reason, from reading an article in C&D, happens to be the fact that M5's rear suspension is succeptible to axle-hop under a hard launch. Axle hop is managed much better with the SMG, for some reason, and because the car was originally designed for use with the SMG (manual was an afterthought for US), the rear suspension is not strong enough to withstand both the axle hop and warranty claims.

As far as your comment about sensible engineers... Most of regular folks that can afford this car would not do the things which would bring these limitations to the surface. But this car is not sold for practical purposes alone and as such, an owner that has $90K to spend should be entitled to peel off from a stop or kick the tail out if he feels like it. To say that this model does not allow the driver to do it for "sensible reasons" is to deny the whole purpose of a car like this (and a pretty large list of other cars: 911s, M3s, Corvettes, Vipers, etc.).

mmarshall

A number of us pretty much covered this DSC issue in previous posts. We agreed to give it a rest, after agreeing to disagree.

doug_999

I have to tell ya, as a guy who really would not consider an M5 unless it had/has a stick.....I rarely rarely ever turn off my DSC completely and I never never take my car to the track. So if I don't do this on my 550, why would I ever consider doing it on a $95K car?

So my thinking is, if you want to track your M5, then get the SMG - the car was made for it. If you want to drive it on city streets, get the stick.

MMarshall - it seems to me the M5 was faster than the RS no?

PS: I do wish the stability control be turned off - cause without that feature, I feel that resale value will suffer. Alas, my local dealer has 3 or 4 M5s in stock (all with SMG) and the monthly sales #s are not looking so hot of late....

DASHOCKER

iTrader: (2)

I've driven the Audi RS4 at the "Audi Streets of Tomorrow" event last year here in NYC.. It is one amazing machine It launches like a banshee , the feel of the shifts is very Honda like (Honda has incredible manual trannies), the V8 sounds like a 60's musclecar, I love it.. Never got an opportunity to drive the v10 M5, so I can't compare..

mmarshall

Haven't driven the new M5, doug. ( I DID, of course, drive and review the new 550i at your request ). The 550i, as you no doubt know, WILL get out of its own way.

According to the Edmunds article that is the source of the thread, though, they say that their test RS4 handily outran the test M5...which I find surprising, given the RS4's 80 less HP and the added weight/drag of AWD. They blame it on the M5's full-time electronic safety nannies, but I don't buy that one. Suppose, for example, the traction control COULD be turned off and wheelspin induced. Spinning wheels usually provide less acceleration than wheels that have full traction, so the 0-60 times would likely be even SLOWER with the T/C disabled.
In fact, that is one reason ( among many ) why T/C was developed in the first place.

ff_

Didn't BMW itself claim that some wheelspin is a good thing with respect to acceleration numbers? There's a launch function that comes with the SMG model that does exactly this. I think the main thing is getting the engine into the meat of its power range, and keeping it there throughout the launch. This will result in wheelspin.

I'll admit, that I'm by no means an expert on this. So I could just be talking out of my butt.

mmarshall

No, you are not talking out of your butt......and most people on CAR CHAT don't. You raise a valid question.

I wouldn't call myself a powertrain expert either, but some things are just common sense. Even if the engine is at or near the torque peak, tires can't push you forward if they are not gripping the pavement. The engine's power is just wasted, for nothing, in the extra wheelspin. That's why the Traction Control, upon wheelspin, de-throttles it, and sometimes even brakes the drive wheels, until you DO get traction, then adds throttle back as needed for max acceleration until the wheels start spinning again.....many times per second.
Next time you are in a high-powered RWD car with traction control on a slick surface, try accclerating quickly, both with and without the T/C (if deprogrammable) and you'll see the difference for yourself.

ff_

I agree that wheelspin is wasteful. Though, my totally unscientific opinion is that the gains seen by keeping the engine in its power range during the launch more than makes up for what's lost in traction. This, of course, assumes that tire slippage is kept to a minimum. Better off (from a performance standpoint) letting the clutch do the slipping, rather than the tires.

Who knows. This'd be an interesting topic to discuss with someone familiar with drag racing.

Pearlpower

iTrader: (2)

Without going into it much, yes, very little wheel spin is very helpful at the track; whether 1/4 or autocross. Very little.
Most magazines enjoy sliding the cars around a track for the fun factor and trash cars that cannot have their stability disabled.
It all depends on how aggressive the system is. The older VSC system Lexus used was/is a death warrant. Get a little wheel spin while entering a busy street and the computer will take 80% of your power away and leave you helpless until you back off the gas even if you have traction midway into the turn.
I am sure the BMW system is similar to the new Lexus VDIM which allows for a little loss of traction before the computers kick in.
Keep in mind that there is a difference between the 0-60 and ¼ times process. One is the time the wheels take to get to speed and the other is the time the car takes to get to a destination.
Go out and spin your tires in the sand and and you will hit 60 in 3 seconds flat, but you went nowhere in the process.

Och

iTrader: (3)

This is why I always said that regular BMW's are a prime example of mediocrity; And their “M” models are just over-clocked mediocrity – sure they are fast, but they are unreliable. It’s just silly with M3 engines blowing up and burning oil, and M5 transmissions not being able to handle the power. I’d take Audi “S” models and MB “AMG” models over BMW” M” models anytime.