MR_F1

Don't forget the MR-2 (in particular the MKII turbo). Its a better sports car than the supra was, without question. It has to be the most underrated vehicle in Toyota's arsenal.

You guys also missed out on cars like the EP82 GT Turbo Starlet, the AE101 Levin GT-Z/GT Apex, the AE111 Levin BZ-R. Albeit the we all FWD, these were some serious handling and fairly quick machines (for the time). You better believe they know how.

MR_F1

I checked, its supposed to be the same family of transmission, with ratios and bell housings adapted for particular engines.

MR_F1

I agree with you. The E46 M3 is superior to the supra. It came out after the supra was put out to pasture, it ought to be. The supra was however, superior to the E36.

And the 1st gen Altezza was based heavily on the Supra chassis, as was the Soarer (SC) and the Chaser.

MR_F1

Now here is where we wont see eye to eye. BMW has won more int'l races than Toyota? Puhlease

Toyota has achieved more in its 50 yrs of motorsport than BMW has in almost twice the time.
Show me some stats to back ur statement up, because from what i've researched, you are very wrong. Don't try counting in BMW's success in motorcycle racing.... apples to apples here.

When was the last time Toyota won an F1 race? Pssssshhh, when was the last time BMW won one? Don't even try and tell me with Williams F1, because all they did was supply the motor.


p.s. BMW beat Toyota at Le Mans in 1999, due to a TYRE FAILURE. The GT-One was a far superior machine to BMW's entry. In fact, the more than 8 yr old GT-One draws comparisons to Audi's venerable R10

JZA80MHU38

You are not being convincing here. Maybe you can work with RiceMaster to put up some stats and facts first to back up your statement as you two brought this one up. BMW has won more touring car/stock car series racing since the 2002 (the model, not the year) era.

BMW supply the motor, and they still are part of the team right? Let's say they only won part of an F1 race because they only supply the engine, then when did Toyota win part of an F1 race?

Oh, so I guess BMW should forfeit their Le Mans title and just hand it to Toyota because people are saying Toyota has the better... no, make it FAR SUPERIOR machine to BMW's, even though it can't finish the race? Maybe ALL the entries in that race should just erase all the things happen on that day and let Toyota take the title away because it's so FAR SUPERIOR. That's funny...

Now back to the topic. Another reason I think the M3 will be a better sports car than the IS-F is that BMW has put the E90 in more races than Toyota/Lexus has done with the IS, so they should have more data and experience to work with for tuning the car.

TRDFantasy

This thread is going nowhere fast.

The IS-F will have well over 400HP, and well over 350 lb-ft. Don't believe me, then have some patience for a few months until official specs are out. Lexus in their press release stated that the suspension, steering tuning, parts of the transmission, and engine are all unique to the IS-F, among other things. Those who believe that the IS-F is simply an IS350 with firmer suspension a big motor will be sorely mistaken once the full, official specs come out.

I expect the IS-F to have a full complement of suspension modifications, different suspension geometry, as well as chassis and body rigidity enhancements.

For all we know, the suspension, steering, transmission parts, and engine of the IS-F may not be swappable into a regular IS350.

As for Toyota's involvement in motorsports, they have a legendary reputation in WRC, and the Dakar rally. Toyota has also wins in CART racing, a huge number of wins in off-road racing, and is quickly building a reputation in Rolex Grand Am Sports Car Racing. Team Lexus with the IS300 had a number of wins in Touring Car/Stock Car races.

Unlike Honda and BMW, who were simply engine suppliers in F1 for many years, Toyota entered F1 and started from scratch, building their own full team from nothing. Toyota from the very beginning made their own chassis and engine in F1. BMW and Honda now have full factory teams, but that's not the same as Toyota's team. Honda simply bought BAR, and BMW simply bought the Sauber team. Sauber and BAR people are still working for BMW and Honda, respectively. Toyota did not buy up any other teams in F1. They are a true independent team.

joyriide

"My dad can beat up your dad!"---

Joy

MR_F1

Listen, I don't have to convince you of jack shyte. I'm tired of posting Toyota's extensive motorsport history & championship wins (based in fact, not speculation) all over the bloody internet, maybe I should have done a word doc and saved it on my pc so I dont have to gather the info every time I have a point to prove. I'm not going to do it again, maybe you could do yourself a favour and look it up.

BMW has won the WTCC twice.... what other international touring car series would you like to talk about? Of course, they have done great at DTM and ETC & BTC, and they have my props and respect for that but ...those are European series....not International. I suppose you would like to say that European touring car racing is oh so superior to Japanese touring car racing? And FYI Williams race Engineering built the BMW Le mans car. I'm not saying they should hand them the title, I'm merely stating that they lucked out.

I will agree with you that they have more experience putting the 3 series through racing than Lexus has the IS, no question about that at all. Then again, that was never my point was it?

Mr. Jones

what exactly does an open wheel racing car have to do w/a streetcar?

F1 has zero relevance to these vehicles

insider

The Lexus 3.0 V6 (GS 300) with direct fuel injection makes 245hp. The BMW 3.0 makes 255hp without direct fuel injection, with DFI it makes 272hp. So not exactly sure what you are talking about

jgscott

iTrader: (1)

This Thread reminds me of " Web Racing ". Guesstimation auguring.

TRDFantasy

Not totally true. F1 does have *some* relevance to street cars and production cars, although it's very small. Many F1 technologies eventually make their way into production cars. Also, a lot of knowledge and experience gained in F1 greatly helps in terms of production cars.

LexFather

Like BBS wheels

RiceMaster

I think you're missing the point. People are making it sound as if Lexus has no clue or experience with making high performance vehicles. So they automatically assume M3 will be the better performing vehicle. I'm only pointing out that Lexus is TOYOTA, and TOYOTA has tons and tons of experience building race track vehicles that BMW can't hope to match. Toyota competes in all kinds of track events from Rally to Nascar to F1, just to name a few. BMW simply doesn't have that kind of experience or expertise. Wether Toyota won or not is not the issue at hand. The worse Toyota race car is still light years better in performance than any street BMW car. Toyota simply have a ton of experience to draw from. That is my point. So what is to stop them from using some of these experience to make their LEXUS vehicles more competitive? Toyota has had plenty of time to hear us and the media carp about their halfazz efforts. They are going after the M3 aren't they?

From the way it looks, it is the M3 that's bringing the smaller gun to the fight. Toyotas not messin around this time. Look at what they've done with the new TUNDRA. If we were to judge Tundra based on Toyotas past effort, then we would assume Tundra is no match for anything in it's class. Toyota is MAD and their new products are specifically designed to get **** talkers to ****.

Lets not forget, M3 is first and foremost a luxury car(a bloated at that), it is NOT a track car nor was it design to be a track car. It was tested at the track to find flaws, but it is not a Lotus Elise or GT3 type.

OC 335d

Your anti-bias toward the German cars and fanboy nature are clearly evident.

Comments like these just make me shake my head. I would hope the worst Toyota race car would outperform any BMW street car. I'm pretty sure you can say the same about ANY company. My race car will outperform your street car. Absolutely absurd.

I don't have any doubts Toyota/Lexus COULD produce a car worthy of competing against the M3. Will they choose to however? What myself and I believe others have doubts about is Lexus really going to produce a car so different than the rest of their lineup? The leaf generally doesn't fall far from the tree and I believe this will more likely be the case here. Again, I'd be more than happy if Lexus surprises me, but I doubt it. As a car enthusiast, I'd love for the IS-F to beat the M3, it would only push BMW and other competitors to be better. Competition is a healthy thing.

LOL. BMW has a lot more racing history than Toyota and that's nothing against Toyota. If you go to the tracks and events, you'll see a lot more BMWs there than you will see MR2s, MR-S, & Supras. More enthusiasts race BMWs because BMWs build sportier cars throughout their whole lineup. Regardless of their "bloat" or what not. How many IS350s do you see on the track? GS? SCs? LS4xx? Not many as these are luxury oriented cars. I'll throw out a disclaimer again before anyone jumps on my back, these cars are meant to be luxury cars and that's not a knock on them. No one buys a Lexus because they are sportier than its competitors.

How many cars are the Lotus Elise or GT3 type? You are comparing the M3 to a Lotus Elise that's hardly a comfortable street car. And the M3 to a Super car. Lexus doesn't offer anything even close to these cars as well. Let's not forget, Lexus' primary direction is luxury (where they do very well).

I apologize to the mods in advance for my rant but this fan-boyism has to stop. We are all car enthusiasts, right?