JZA80MHU38

[QUOTE=Och;2493967]Oh really? AFAIK, Lexus LS400 utterly trumped the driving dynamics of S class, and everyone else for that matter, over a decade ago, and continues to do so.
QUOTE]

I don't want to start another "I said-you said" war here, so just let me politely disagree your comment. The current and previous gen S-class sure drive better than the Lexus. Again, just my opinion.

LexFather

We are not in here to talk about the Japanese chasing German driving dynamics. This thread is about the difficulty they are having developing credible hybrid tech.
It is not just the Germans, Honda's hybrids are not *** high tech as Toyota nor GMs or Fords.|
Nissan's Altima uses Toyota's Hybrid Synergy.
Everyone else is stuck.

Even Porsche got the point and is developing it with Toyota for a future product.

STAY ON TOPIC.

mavericck

German Engineering/Innovations:

The Automobile (Karl Benz and Gottlieb Daimler)
The World fastest production car (The Veyron was developed by Volkswagen)
The modern Sport Sedan owes its' existence to the BMW 2002
The V12 used in the Mclaren F1 was developed by BMW
The Rocket and subsequently the US space program (Dr. Von Braun)
The modern Jet (US technology was a virtual copy of Me-262's used by Germany during WWII)
The Internal Combustion engine (The Otto cycle)
The Diesel engine (Dr. Diesel)
The Wankel engine (Dr. Felix Wankel)
The Horizontally Opposed engine
The Printing Press (Gutenberg)
The Geiger Counter (Dr. Geiger)
Modern Psychology as an empirical science (Wilhelm Wundt and Sigmund Freud)
Modern telecommunications (Dr. Hertz)
The discovery of X-rays (Wilhelm Conrad Röntgen)
The first fully automatic digital computer (Konrad Zuse)
The Dual clutch gearbox developed by Bosch and used by VW/Audi (DSG)
The modern Highway system we use today is modeled after the German Autobahn (which was the first national highway system in the world)
The Cruise Missile (V1 and V2 rockets used against Britain in WWII)
Modern Battlefield tactics which were used in Desert Storm 1 and 2 (Blitzkrieg with the use of a combination tanks and aircraft)
A lot of Submarine technology that we use today came from the U-boats of WWII (Peroxide scubber systems and snorkels)
Splitting of the Atom and modern Physics (Albert Einstein immigrated from Germany after being taught in their schools)
First to the market with Airbags
First to maket with ABS
First to market with Stability Control program
First to market with Parking sensors
Current Diesel technology (TDI) is comparable if not more efficient than Hybrid technology and can be just as clean if used with low sulfur diesel used in Europe and bio-diesel.


The list could go on and on....

As you can see German engineering and innovation is definately nothing to scoff at. And for more than a century Japanese engineers have been reverse engineering German inventions and for once the market has forced German automakers to follow the Japanese in terms of hybrid power-trains. Now all of a sudden everyone is "all hail Japanese engineering"....please....its more like "all hail Japanese reverse engineering". Don't get me wrong they are extremely good at it and that's why I own an LS.

uplusd

Yeah German cars own. That's why the head cracked on my X5 at 21,000 miles. Can't wait to buy another BMW!

mavericck

I've seen heads crack on Toyotas, Hondas, and Nissans as well....it happens. People just don't expect it to happen with BMWs, Merc's, or Audi's.

Gojirra99

Take off topic discussion to pm please.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Well, german engineering and innovation is defenately nothing to scoff at, they have innovated and lead the market for over a century now. But this just goes further to prove how amazing Japanese engineering is. Look, just not too long ago Japanese have been building nothing but cheap soapboxes - but ever since they entered the US market in the 70ies, the quality of their cars has been drastically improving, and in 1990 LS400 had everyone beat. I'm sure they disassembled and studied a lot of S classes, but the fact is it only took them a decade or so to surpass the S class, which was evolving for nearly a century, and ever since they never looked back.

Today LS600h is the most advanced car in the world by leaps and years. Sure, Bugati Veyrons or whatsnot maybe faster, but that doesn't make them advanced. Supercars as such are extremely expensive, impractical, require tons of maintenance, etc. And then there's always a Mustang or a Supra that's been modified by amateurs that's even faster.

In any case however, even if the Japanese were guilty of reverse engineering in the past, todays the tables have turned. Now it's germans that are trying to copy Japan's hybrid technology, and I'm sure they are disecting hybrid Hondas and Toyotas, but so far no cigar.

Mr. Jones

you can't discount his actual experiences by saying the same has happened on someone else's car.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

This is the 3rd request by moderators to keep the discussion on topic to hybrid tech. Blown headgaskets, driving dynamics, Bugati's are not the correct discussion for this topic. Create a new one or stay out of this one.

encore888

So back on topic, the fact that the Germans are pursuing this, and that Porsche decided in favor of hybrids and against diesels...does this have to do with Europe's carbon emissions curbs?

That they are investing in this technology suggests that it is seen as longer-term, perhaps? Certainly if Mercedes is going to put it in their vaunted S-class...

And it makes sense then, considering the difficulties, that BMW/Mercedes/etc are teaming up to collaborate on a hybrid against Toyota. However, I'm guessing that all of them combined still don't have the experience/expertise? Porsche taking the partnership route...Nissan licensing the tech for the Altima...

Also wondering if the Li-Ion batteries are going to make the hybrids with Ni-metal hydride batteries less attractive?

GS69

Trying to push this back on topic: Maybe they should focus on their diesel engines where they have a head start on the rest of the world ... well, except maybe Honda.

marshmallo

I am not a big fan of diesel, but in the future perhaps a hybrid+diesel
approach may be the best of both words...

Iceman

I don't know how the Germans expected to develop a hybrid in the blink of an eye. Honda and Toyota have been working on theirs for over a decade! And even though the Germans have the benefit of being able to reverse engineer the Japanese designs, we're not talking something simple like a new gasket design. Hybrid technology involves breakthroughs on several fronts involving mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, software design, and systems engineering--putting it all together.

mavericck

I agree about them focusing on Diesels. Just look at the Audi R10.

Bercasio

iTrader: (1)

Whatever way you would like to put it or whoever invented what 1st. All I have to say is the Germans may have started a whole lot when it comes to automotive technology. It's just too bad they can't seem to "improve on perfection". Create, create, and create some more...and say after the fact..."but we did that 1st!!!). If they keep up with this kind of level of attitude, they continue to pave the road for other manufacturers to figure it out and become the better(let's say japanese brands for that matter) of them "all." Now the Euro brands are the ones playing catch up, or fairly to say trying more than ever to just "maintain the pace". Let's say they continue to chase their own tail...too bad for them, especially knowing that they have been in the game much longer than Toyota, and even Lexus for that matter. Really what a shame...they we caught sleeping......again!!!